10 ms·

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKE

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have.

rbg246 6y ago
From all the history I have read of civilisation, it's been grain that has been the foundation of human society as we know it, meat couldn't get us anywhere. Meat eating among the poor in European societies and derived societies is a new phenomenon at least in the idea that every meal has meat in it. Take a look outside of Europe or even within less wealthy areas of Europe and their diets are magnitudes lower in their meat consumption. I've read the opposite re: inflammatory side effects of meat that we are discovering. WHO a few years ago put eating sulfite infested meat as being carcinogenic.
- _jahh 6y ago
  its appropriate both you and op can be right in that he said meat was essential for mankind and you say grain is foundation for society. grain was the way civilization was enforced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_Hist...
  - rbg246 6y ago
    'The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it' The only was I can read that quote is mankind as we know it is the grain society that was enforced you point out.
    - toxik 6y ago
      Right but then there is the theory that cooked meat is responsible for our big brains and upright gait. That’s kinda defining for our species.
yelloweyes 6y ago
what? My life wouldn't change at all if I suddenly started eating 50% less meat. wouldn't change a thing.
danenania 6y ago
Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements. I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? I know plenty of vegans and vegetarians who say they feel better after giving up meat, so I've always figured it depends on the person.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  I have to be honest I had the same experience (which is unfortunate). I went vegetarian and borderline vegan for 2 years and I wound up feeling depressed and run down. It could’ve been from other things too, it’s only anecdotal. I started introducing some chicken and fish into my diet again and I felt better. I now eat meat again, just conscious of how much I’m eating and try eat a bit less. One thing I noticed is that with being a vegetarian, I found to eat properly is harder. I had to cook a lot more to find the protein and calories, it seems to be something which I could probably do correctly if I had more time for it. Balanced diet is the way to go I think. One of the things I hate about eating meat is the copious amounts of plastic it comes in. With fruit and vegetables I don’t need too worry as much as I don’t put it in plastic bags, it’s a shame that meat is sold in disposable plastic.
- atweiden 6y ago
  > Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements. > I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? For better or worse, it's very easy to end up eating a caloric deficit on a plant-based diet. I'm very glad I use a kitchen scale and small script I wrote to calculate how much kcal/protein/carbs/fat I'm actually getting in comparison to what I should be getting. To put it mildly, plant-based diets take some getting used to. Protein is important, but beyond 1.4-1.6 grams of protein per kg body weight, your body increasingly relieves itself of any excess. Particularly if you stick to eating low-fat legumes, grains and greens per Esselstyn [1], getting enough protein isn't a concern. In fact, I have to consciously choose low protein foods like potatoes and rice just to ensure I don't get too much protein. [1]: http://www.dresselstyn.com/ http://www.dresselstyn.com/
seanwilson 6y ago
> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. That's not a reason to continue, especially with climate change and the impact on nature. We have new challenges now. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. > The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have. You offer no proof there's a problem going meat-free and major health organisations say plant-based diets are healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism "Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[23] the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[24] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[25] Harvard Medical School,[26] and the British Dietetic Association.[27]" There's lots of examples of sports people, academics, musicians etc. who are on plant based diets too to prove the point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans
atweiden 6y ago
> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Hedging language aside — i.e. "humans evolved because X to some extent" — I recently had an epiphany touring the north island of New Zealand by minibus. Productivity utterly collapses when you have to frequently move from one (temporary) settlement to another. What you eat isn't nearly as impactful as the degree to which you can be stationary. Interestingly, primitive hunter-gatherer societies could rely upon wild game or fish for caloric intake, which was conducive to a nomadic life. There's no need for an agricultural revolution if you're OK with killing wild animals to harvest their flesh for food. But to call this instrumental in human development is I think wrong. Meat is without question the most primitive way to feed: meat consumption does not require any amount of long-term settlement nor does it require much intelligence: carnivorous animals low in general intelligence regularly kill each other in the wild for food. Meat consumption is fundamentally a primitive adaptation. Factory farmed meat consumption is a relatively modern phenomenon driven first and foremost by human habituation to the taste of flesh. Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12. > Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Such as? Meat is a euphemism for slabs of fat and muscle tissue containing amino acids. With the exception of wild-caught fatty fish like salmon — factory farmed fatty fish contain greatly reduced levels of omega-3s — the fat is of questionable healthiness compared to vegetable sources. And if you're convinced it's necessary to consume the muscle tissue of formerly living creatures for amino acids, you'd eat insects for environmental sustainability's sake. In fact, insect exoskeletons are a rich source of dietary calcium directly comparable to dairy. The fact most of you reading this wouldn't dream of eating insects, goes to show nutritional value is not why you're eating meat. Taste is #1. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. Citation needed. > The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have. Where do high-fat nuts and seeds fit in your view of "dense forms of nutrition"? E.g. gram for gram, you're getting much more calories from nuts and seeds than you're getting from low-fat muscle tissue such as chicken.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  “Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.” Which is what’s interesting to me, you basically cannot actually be vegan without supplements. Maybe this is where we should go as a specifies for ethical reasons. But it’s a mental leap to rely on supplements for vital nutrients.
sizzle 6y ago
Have a source for that inflammatory plant claim? It's news to me..
xg15 6y ago
> Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. We'll ok, but we're not in the stone age anymore. We can produce processed, plant-based food with a similar nutrition density. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. Do you have sources for that?

rbg246 6y ago

From all the history I have read of civilisation, it's been grain that has been the foundation of human society as we know it, meat couldn't get us anywhere. Meat eating among the poor in European societies and derived societies is a new phenomenon at least in the idea that every meal has meat in it. Take a look outside of Europe or even within less wealthy areas of Europe and their diets are magnitudes lower in their meat consumption. I've read the opposite re: inflammatory side effects of meat that we are discovering. WHO a few years ago put eating sulfite infested meat as being carcinogenic.

_jahh 6y ago
its appropriate both you and op can be right in that he said meat was essential for mankind and you say grain is foundation for society. grain was the way civilization was enforced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_Hist...
- rbg246 6y ago
  'The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it' The only was I can read that quote is mankind as we know it is the grain society that was enforced you point out.
  - toxik 6y ago
    Right but then there is the theory that cooked meat is responsible for our big brains and upright gait. That’s kinda defining for our species.

yelloweyes 6y ago

what? My life wouldn't change at all if I suddenly started eating 50% less meat. wouldn't change a thing.

danenania 6y ago

Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements. I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? I know plenty of vegans and vegetarians who say they feel better after giving up meat, so I've always figured it depends on the person.

bamboozled 6y ago
I have to be honest I had the same experience (which is unfortunate). I went vegetarian and borderline vegan for 2 years and I wound up feeling depressed and run down. It could’ve been from other things too, it’s only anecdotal. I started introducing some chicken and fish into my diet again and I felt better. I now eat meat again, just conscious of how much I’m eating and try eat a bit less. One thing I noticed is that with being a vegetarian, I found to eat properly is harder. I had to cook a lot more to find the protein and calories, it seems to be something which I could probably do correctly if I had more time for it. Balanced diet is the way to go I think. One of the things I hate about eating meat is the copious amounts of plastic it comes in. With fruit and vegetables I don’t need too worry as much as I don’t put it in plastic bags, it’s a shame that meat is sold in disposable plastic.
atweiden 6y ago
> Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements. > I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? For better or worse, it's very easy to end up eating a caloric deficit on a plant-based diet. I'm very glad I use a kitchen scale and small script I wrote to calculate how much kcal/protein/carbs/fat I'm actually getting in comparison to what I should be getting. To put it mildly, plant-based diets take some getting used to. Protein is important, but beyond 1.4-1.6 grams of protein per kg body weight, your body increasingly relieves itself of any excess. Particularly if you stick to eating low-fat legumes, grains and greens per Esselstyn [1], getting enough protein isn't a concern. In fact, I have to consciously choose low protein foods like potatoes and rice just to ensure I don't get too much protein. [1]: http://www.dresselstyn.com/ http://www.dresselstyn.com/

seanwilson 6y ago

> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. That's not a reason to continue, especially with climate change and the impact on nature. We have new challenges now. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. > The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have. You offer no proof there's a problem going meat-free and major health organisations say plant-based diets are healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism "Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[23] the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[24] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[25] Harvard Medical School,[26] and the British Dietetic Association.[27]" There's lots of examples of sports people, academics, musicians etc. who are on plant based diets too to prove the point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans

atweiden 6y ago

> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Hedging language aside — i.e. "humans evolved because X to some extent" — I recently had an epiphany touring the north island of New Zealand by minibus. Productivity utterly collapses when you have to frequently move from one (temporary) settlement to another. What you eat isn't nearly as impactful as the degree to which you can be stationary. Interestingly, primitive hunter-gatherer societies could rely upon wild game or fish for caloric intake, which was conducive to a nomadic life. There's no need for an agricultural revolution if you're OK with killing wild animals to harvest their flesh for food. But to call this instrumental in human development is I think wrong. Meat is without question the most primitive way to feed: meat consumption does not require any amount of long-term settlement nor does it require much intelligence: carnivorous animals low in general intelligence regularly kill each other in the wild for food. Meat consumption is fundamentally a primitive adaptation. Factory farmed meat consumption is a relatively modern phenomenon driven first and foremost by human habituation to the taste of flesh. Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12. > Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Such as? Meat is a euphemism for slabs of fat and muscle tissue containing amino acids. With the exception of wild-caught fatty fish like salmon — factory farmed fatty fish contain greatly reduced levels of omega-3s — the fat is of questionable healthiness compared to vegetable sources. And if you're convinced it's necessary to consume the muscle tissue of formerly living creatures for amino acids, you'd eat insects for environmental sustainability's sake. In fact, insect exoskeletons are a rich source of dietary calcium directly comparable to dairy. The fact most of you reading this wouldn't dream of eating insects, goes to show nutritional value is not why you're eating meat. Taste is #1. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. Citation needed. > The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have. Where do high-fat nuts and seeds fit in your view of "dense forms of nutrition"? E.g. gram for gram, you're getting much more calories from nuts and seeds than you're getting from low-fat muscle tissue such as chicken.

bamboozled 6y ago
“Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.” Which is what’s interesting to me, you basically cannot actually be vegan without supplements. Maybe this is where we should go as a specifies for ethical reasons. But it’s a mental leap to rely on supplements for vital nutrients.

sizzle 6y ago

Have a source for that inflammatory plant claim? It's news to me..

xg15 6y ago

> Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. We'll ok, but we're not in the stone age anymore. We can produce processed, plant-based food with a similar nutrition density. > Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. Do you have sources for that?