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> "Make an RFC" means coming up with a comprehensive plan for implementing the feature. That directly contradicts your previous comment (that RFCs are the cont

by a1369209993 6y ago

> "Make an RFC" means coming up with a comprehensive plan for implementing the feature. That directly contradicts your previous comment (that RFCs are the contexts that the teams are supposed to evaluate). Either: 1: non-comprehensive discussions are appropriate for a RFC, and random forum threads are the wrong place for that, in which case your previous comment is absolutely correct that it's unnecessary and likely counterproductive for the crates.io team to weigh in on said threads, but that still leaves the question of why they [edit: the crates.io team] haven't made such a RFC [edit: and told people commenting on the forum threads to instead comment on the RFC, where the crates.io team can evaluate] yet. Or: 2: non-comprehensive discussions are not appropriate for a RFC, and should take place elsewhere (ie random forum threads), in which case it's completely reasonable to expect normative (but obviously not binding) feedback on what would be necessary to produce a RFC-quality proposal in the first place. Personally I weakly favor the former view, on the basis that RFC literally stands for "Requests For Comment", but either one would be a sensible position, as long as one doesn't try to assert the negation simultaneously.

steveklabnik 6y ago
1 is correct, sorta. Comments on an RFC are absolutely fine. That is their purpose. Random forum threads aren't the wrong place for that, like, you can discuss ideas for RFCs on forum threads, but you can't expect the team to always weigh in on threads. Their only responsibility is to the RFC process itself. If you're trying to get a proposal accepted, it's the wrong place. If you're trying to work on a proposal and get early feedback from other people, even if they aren't team members, then it's the right place. > that still leaves the question of why they haven't made such a RFC yet. Yes. I speculated a bit in my last paragraph.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  > > that still leaves the question of why they haven't made such a RFC yet. > Yes. I speculated a bit in my last paragraph. Sorry, I phrased that poorly; see edit.
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    > that still leaves the question of why they [edit: the crates.io team] haven't made such a RFC Because as I said before, coming up with an RFC means putting together a viable plan. The team has not come up with a viable plan yet. Therefore, there's no RFC from them. Anyone who feels that they have a viable plan is free to submit an RFC, and then the team will discuss it and give them feedback.
    - a1369209993 6y ago
      > coming up with an RFC means [I assume: requires, first] putting together a viable plan. Okay, so it's actually number 2[2], then? Which is a prefectly resonable position, except that it's the opposite of what you said before. > "The discussion" has often happened outside of the contexts that the teams are supposed to evaluate; (Also: > 1 is correct, sorta. Comments on an RFC are absolutely fine. That is their purpose. Random forum threads aren't the wrong place for that, like, you can discuss ideas for RFCs on forum threads, but you can't expect the team to always weigh in on threads. but I'm not clear on how much of that was attributable to my poor phrasing of 1.) 2: "non-comprehensive discussions [eg, ones lacking a viable plan] are not appropriate for a RFC" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24449289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24449289
      - steveklabnik 6y ago
        The process to get a major change for Rust is: 1. You write up a proposal. We have a template so that you get the structure right and some general prompts to help you ask the right questions. 2. You can post it on the forums, as a "pre-RFC." This is like a vague temperature check from anyone and everyone. Nobody is required to pay attention to these, but it can be a valuable step if they do. This step is optional for everyone involved, you can go straight to step 3. 3. You take your proposal and submit it as an actual RFC. The teams are required to pay attention to these, and they either accept the proposal, reject the proposal, postpone the proposal, or give feedback designed to drive the consensus of the team towards one of these states. When people say "the team is ignoring threads," they are referring to threads that are in step 2. Most discussions aren't full proposals yet. And they generate a lot of discussion. And then people never move to step 3. Those that do are guaranteed feedback from the team in some fashion. Your initial edited comment: > that still leaves the question of why they [edit: the crates.io team] haven't made such a RFC Nobody is required to make an RFC for anything. If the team doesn't want to write one up, they don't have to. It's on the advocates of the feature to start the process, no matter if they're on the team or not. > [edit: and told people commenting on the forum threads to instead comment on the RFC, where the crates.io team can evaluate] yet. They didn't say "comment on the RFC," because there is no RFC at that stage. They said "please make an RFC." This is the same process every single major change to Rust goes through. It's pretty standard. The vast majority of people who desire this feature never actually do it though, because they tend to post on the forums, get a ton of comments from people, and then burn out, it seems. I hope this helps. To be honest this thread is so old I'm likely to lose track of it and not reply further.

steveklabnik 6y ago

1 is correct, sorta. Comments on an RFC are absolutely fine. That is their purpose. Random forum threads aren't the wrong place for that, like, you can discuss ideas for RFCs on forum threads, but you can't expect the team to always weigh in on threads. Their only responsibility is to the RFC process itself. If you're trying to get a proposal accepted, it's the wrong place. If you're trying to work on a proposal and get early feedback from other people, even if they aren't team members, then it's the right place. > that still leaves the question of why they haven't made such a RFC yet. Yes. I speculated a bit in my last paragraph.

a1369209993 6y ago
> > that still leaves the question of why they haven't made such a RFC yet. > Yes. I speculated a bit in my last paragraph. Sorry, I phrased that poorly; see edit.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  > that still leaves the question of why they [edit: the crates.io team] haven't made such a RFC Because as I said before, coming up with an RFC means putting together a viable plan. The team has not come up with a viable plan yet. Therefore, there's no RFC from them. Anyone who feels that they have a viable plan is free to submit an RFC, and then the team will discuss it and give them feedback.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    > coming up with an RFC means [I assume: requires, first] putting together a viable plan. Okay, so it's actually number 2[2], then? Which is a prefectly resonable position, except that it's the opposite of what you said before. > "The discussion" has often happened outside of the contexts that the teams are supposed to evaluate; (Also: > 1 is correct, sorta. Comments on an RFC are absolutely fine. That is their purpose. Random forum threads aren't the wrong place for that, like, you can discuss ideas for RFCs on forum threads, but you can't expect the team to always weigh in on threads. but I'm not clear on how much of that was attributable to my poor phrasing of 1.) 2: "non-comprehensive discussions [eg, ones lacking a viable plan] are not appropriate for a RFC" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24449289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24449289
    - steveklabnik 6y ago
      The process to get a major change for Rust is: 1. You write up a proposal. We have a template so that you get the structure right and some general prompts to help you ask the right questions. 2. You can post it on the forums, as a "pre-RFC." This is like a vague temperature check from anyone and everyone. Nobody is required to pay attention to these, but it can be a valuable step if they do. This step is optional for everyone involved, you can go straight to step 3. 3. You take your proposal and submit it as an actual RFC. The teams are required to pay attention to these, and they either accept the proposal, reject the proposal, postpone the proposal, or give feedback designed to drive the consensus of the team towards one of these states. When people say "the team is ignoring threads," they are referring to threads that are in step 2. Most discussions aren't full proposals yet. And they generate a lot of discussion. And then people never move to step 3. Those that do are guaranteed feedback from the team in some fashion. Your initial edited comment: > that still leaves the question of why they [edit: the crates.io team] haven't made such a RFC Nobody is required to make an RFC for anything. If the team doesn't want to write one up, they don't have to. It's on the advocates of the feature to start the process, no matter if they're on the team or not. > [edit: and told people commenting on the forum threads to instead comment on the RFC, where the crates.io team can evaluate] yet. They didn't say "comment on the RFC," because there is no RFC at that stage. They said "please make an RFC." This is the same process every single major change to Rust goes through. It's pretty standard. The vast majority of people who desire this feature never actually do it though, because they tend to post on the forums, get a ton of comments from people, and then burn out, it seems. I hope this helps. To be honest this thread is so old I'm likely to lose track of it and not reply further.