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I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equival

I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. Second of all, you can raise livestock like cattle, sheep, and goats on extremely rough terrain. Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs. Those areas may be highly inefficient in terms of land area per gram of protein, but it’s not going to be productive farmland otherwise.

latch 6y ago
Saying that someone's figures are misleading because the alternative is "huge" isn't a compelling argument. What's the amount? How much does it depend on the crop? What about rice and lentils? Why almond milk? Why not another alternative? Why do we need milk at current quantities at all?
seanwilson 6y ago
> I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. See the link - 63% of the global protein supply already comes from crops while crops only make up 23% of agriculture land so meat isn't as efficient a source anyway: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets > If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts Most livestock aren't eating grass though, they're eating crops like soy because soy is full of protein (and that land use is included in the 40 million km^2 figure). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean "Around 80% of the global soybean crop is used to feed livestock.[46] Soya imports represent 47% of Europe’s deforestation footprint" > Replace all the milk with almond milk Or rice milk, oat milk, or soy milk. When cows are eating soybeans to produce milk right now, soy milk is always going to be more efficient. Plant based milks are all significantly more efficient than diary milk for emissions, land and water use too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042 Also, the focus on protein is just a distraction. It's not difficult to get protein from plants alone and most Americans eat too much protein already: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein-do-we-need.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount." > Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs. If we were only farming grass fed cows on jagged cliffs, it would be less of a problem compared to mass deforestation to grow soybeans to feed to cows in intensive farms. The latter is the reality right now for everyone to have access to cheap meat but it's not sustainable.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
edjrage 6y ago
> If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution. But of course it's just not sexy enough for most westerners. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations: > Edible insects contain high quality protein, vitamins and amino acids for humans. Insects have a high food conversion rate, e.g. crickets need six times less feed than cattle, four times less than sheep, and twice less than pigs and broiler chickens to produce the same amount of protein. Besides, they emit less greenhouse gases and ammonia than conventional livestock. Insects can be grown on organic waste. Therefore, insects are a potential source for conventional production (mini-livestock) of protein, either for direct human consumption, or indirectly in recomposed foods (with extracted protein from insects); and as a protein source into feedstock mixtures. http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/ http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/
- seanwilson 6y ago
  > In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution. What is the actual problem that needs a solution though? I feel like "but where will we get our protein from?" is a common fallacy on the subject of meat that people accept without evidence. We're eating more meat now than ever and most Americans eat too much protein: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount."
  - toxik 6y ago
    Who recommends 50 grams of protein per day? That’s way too little for an adult male.
    - seanwilson 6y ago
      NHS for one: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/body-building-sports-supplements-facts/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/body-building-spor... > The Department of Health advises adults to avoid consuming more than twice the recommended daily intake of protein (55.5g for men and 45g for women). https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/what-are-reference-intakes-on-food-labels/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/what-are-reference-int... > Protein: 50g Also, not that it's hard to get protein with plants anyway, but if you're really concerned with getting lots of protein, look into making seitan: https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/food-drink/a25976250/steak-seitan-which-is-better/ https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/food-drink/a25976250... > Steak (25g protein per 100g) > Seitan (75g protein per 100g) Its main component is wheat flour with everything washed away but the gluten so it's super cheap to produce and make. I think "you need meat for protein" is just a persistent meme/myth people cling on to to justify eating meat. Where do people think the animals are getting their protein from?
danimal88 6y ago
As I understand it, humans are overconsuming proteins
atweiden 6y ago
> I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. I don't follow — I get my protein mostly from grains and a small amount of legumes. In Australia, about 2/3rds of all crop production is grown as animal feed, and 90% of the food given to farmed chickens and pigs are grains [1]. > Second of all, you can raise livestock like cattle, sheep, and goats on extremely rough terrain. Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs. Those areas may be highly inefficient in terms of land area per gram of protein, but it’s not going to be productive farmland otherwise. And you can grow crops inside vertical farms within urban areas. [1] https://www.veganaustralia.org.au/impact_of_a_vegan_agricultural_system_on_land_use https://www.veganaustralia.org.au/impact_of_a_vegan_agricult...
adrianN 6y ago
You can raise livestock on rough terrain, but the vast majority of the world's livestock is not raised like that. Meat prices would explode if we did that. You don't have to ban all meat to get most of the effect, not everyone has to become vegan. Livestock are part of a healthy agriculture; for example by turning waste into manure. Grazing is also important for maintaining certain biomes. What we need to stop is industrial meat production. Americans eat nearly 100kg of meat per year. How about we reduce that to 25kg like in Turkey for a start. That's still a steak per week.
- lrem 6y ago
  Switzerland does a lot of raising livestock near mountaintops and I think none of the cows in boxes factory farming. Prices of beef in shops seem to not exceed $100/kg, for most cuts hover around $50/kg ($22.5/pound). How does that compare?
unicornporn 6y ago
Inefficiency of meat and dairy production and land use were major arguments for switching to a vegan diet (when I did so) 20 years ago. Others have chimed in with data, so here's today's anecdotal evidence: today I'm surrounded by fields and farmland. Fields make up roughly 60% of land. 20% of this land houses cattle and 80% grows barley which no human will ever consume. It's only grown for the cattle I think it comes as no surprise that less land could produce more food for humans if the crops didn't have to pass through the cattle. Some farmers not far from here are growing quinoa. It has a very good nutritional profile and offers a more effective use of land.
cranekam 6y ago
A bunch of people have said it already but I have to add my voice in the hope the message is heard: humans don't need tons of protein. Most sources list less than a gram per kilo of bodyweight per day, e.g.: https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/protein.html https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food... It's quite easy to achieve this with a no or low animal product diet. I don't know for sure but I expect the obsession with protein is down to carbohydrates being demonised in the last couple of decades of fad diets (much as fat was before that).

latch 6y ago

Saying that someone's figures are misleading because the alternative is "huge" isn't a compelling argument. What's the amount? How much does it depend on the crop? What about rice and lentils? Why almond milk? Why not another alternative? Why do we need milk at current quantities at all?

seanwilson 6y ago

> I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. See the link - 63% of the global protein supply already comes from crops while crops only make up 23% of agriculture land so meat isn't as efficient a source anyway: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets > If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts Most livestock aren't eating grass though, they're eating crops like soy because soy is full of protein (and that land use is included in the 40 million km^2 figure). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean "Around 80% of the global soybean crop is used to feed livestock.[46] Soya imports represent 47% of Europe’s deforestation footprint" > Replace all the milk with almond milk Or rice milk, oat milk, or soy milk. When cows are eating soybeans to produce milk right now, soy milk is always going to be more efficient. Plant based milks are all significantly more efficient than diary milk for emissions, land and water use too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042 Also, the focus on protein is just a distraction. It's not difficult to get protein from plants alone and most Americans eat too much protein already: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein-do-we-need.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount." > Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs. If we were only farming grass fed cows on jagged cliffs, it would be less of a problem compared to mass deforestation to grow soybeans to feed to cows in intensive farms. The latter is the reality right now for everyone to have access to cheap meat but it's not sustainable.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

edjrage 6y ago

> If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution. But of course it's just not sexy enough for most westerners. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations: > Edible insects contain high quality protein, vitamins and amino acids for humans. Insects have a high food conversion rate, e.g. crickets need six times less feed than cattle, four times less than sheep, and twice less than pigs and broiler chickens to produce the same amount of protein. Besides, they emit less greenhouse gases and ammonia than conventional livestock. Insects can be grown on organic waste. Therefore, insects are a potential source for conventional production (mini-livestock) of protein, either for direct human consumption, or indirectly in recomposed foods (with extracted protein from insects); and as a protein source into feedstock mixtures. http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/ http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/

seanwilson 6y ago
> In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution. What is the actual problem that needs a solution though? I feel like "but where will we get our protein from?" is a common fallacy on the subject of meat that people accept without evidence. We're eating more meat now than ever and most Americans eat too much protein: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount."
- toxik 6y ago
  Who recommends 50 grams of protein per day? That’s way too little for an adult male.
  - seanwilson 6y ago
    NHS for one: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/body-building-sports-supplements-facts/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/body-building-spor... > The Department of Health advises adults to avoid consuming more than twice the recommended daily intake of protein (55.5g for men and 45g for women). https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/what-are-reference-intakes-on-food-labels/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/what-are-reference-int... > Protein: 50g Also, not that it's hard to get protein with plants anyway, but if you're really concerned with getting lots of protein, look into making seitan: https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/food-drink/a25976250/steak-seitan-which-is-better/ https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/food-drink/a25976250... > Steak (25g protein per 100g) > Seitan (75g protein per 100g) Its main component is wheat flour with everything washed away but the gluten so it's super cheap to produce and make. I think "you need meat for protein" is just a persistent meme/myth people cling on to to justify eating meat. Where do people think the animals are getting their protein from?

danimal88 6y ago

As I understand it, humans are overconsuming proteins

atweiden 6y ago

> I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. I don't follow — I get my protein mostly from grains and a small amount of legumes. In Australia, about 2/3rds of all crop production is grown as animal feed, and 90% of the food given to farmed chickens and pigs are grains [1]. > Second of all, you can raise livestock like cattle, sheep, and goats on extremely rough terrain. Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs. Those areas may be highly inefficient in terms of land area per gram of protein, but it’s not going to be productive farmland otherwise. And you can grow crops inside vertical farms within urban areas. [1] https://www.veganaustralia.org.au/impact_of_a_vegan_agricultural_system_on_land_use https://www.veganaustralia.org.au/impact_of_a_vegan_agricult...

adrianN 6y ago

You can raise livestock on rough terrain, but the vast majority of the world's livestock is not raised like that. Meat prices would explode if we did that. You don't have to ban all meat to get most of the effect, not everyone has to become vegan. Livestock are part of a healthy agriculture; for example by turning waste into manure. Grazing is also important for maintaining certain biomes. What we need to stop is industrial meat production. Americans eat nearly 100kg of meat per year. How about we reduce that to 25kg like in Turkey for a start. That's still a steak per week.

lrem 6y ago
Switzerland does a lot of raising livestock near mountaintops and I think none of the cows in boxes factory farming. Prices of beef in shops seem to not exceed $100/kg, for most cuts hover around $50/kg ($22.5/pound). How does that compare?

unicornporn 6y ago

Inefficiency of meat and dairy production and land use were major arguments for switching to a vegan diet (when I did so) 20 years ago. Others have chimed in with data, so here's today's anecdotal evidence: today I'm surrounded by fields and farmland. Fields make up roughly 60% of land. 20% of this land houses cattle and 80% grows barley which no human will ever consume. It's only grown for the cattle I think it comes as no surprise that less land could produce more food for humans if the crops didn't have to pass through the cattle. Some farmers not far from here are growing quinoa. It has a very good nutritional profile and offers a more effective use of land.

cranekam 6y ago

A bunch of people have said it already but I have to add my voice in the hope the message is heard: humans don't need tons of protein. Most sources list less than a gram per kilo of bodyweight per day, e.g.: https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/protein.html https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food... It's quite easy to achieve this with a no or low animal product diet. I don't know for sure but I expect the obsession with protein is down to carbohydrates being demonised in the last couple of decades of fad diets (much as fat was before that).