7 ms·

You do realise Apple could still do this in their app store AND allow 3rd party app stores?

threeseed 6y ago
But 3rd party app stores just mean a race to the bottom. The app store with the least oversight and cheapest prices would be the winner. Policies like this are good for users but bad for apps and by extension app stores.
- fulafel 6y ago
  Doesn't seem to happen on Android.
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    My previous experience with the PlayStore might have been different than yours. In the context of this guideline and other user focused non-tracking/permissions related things, the PlayStore is “already at bottom”.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - fulafel 6y ago
      So more like race to the top?
      - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
        Races to the top are significantly slower, but possible. Trust building is really, really hard.
austhrow743 6y ago
Not to the same effect. It means if developers don’t want to play by Apple’s rules they don’t have to completely surrender the iOS market. A big enough name could just direct users to the third party App Store.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  I would definitely expect a "Facebook Store" to appear if side-loading was allowed which would not only host the Facebook app itself but also provide a safe haven for all of the privacy-violating crap (in fact I'd argue that their review process would require your app to contain the FB SDK for it to be accepted).
  - JiNCMG 6y ago
    Just as bad is the puppet master behind Epic... Tencent. They are dying to get all of their WeChat apps into iOS.
    - redxdev 6y ago
      Christ, what is with people thinking Tencent is behind Epic? They don't have a majority stake in Epic - Tim Sweeney does. There's zero evidence that anything Epic has done and is doing is driven by Tencent. Maybe argue about what Epic is doing based on its own merits, rather than some baseless conspiracy about Tencent.
      - JiNCMG 6y ago
        And Tencent approached Spotify and others investments to join in on court case.
        redxdev 6y ago
        Even if that's true (I haven't seen any reports about Tencent pushing their investments to join the case), it's almost as if it'd benefit a lot of companies to not have to deal with Apple's restrictions. I'll ask again - do you actually have something to say about the merit of the case itself rather than just conspiracies about Tencent? Why is anything you mentioned bad? For argument's sake let's say Apple is in the wrong here and Epic is in the right. Why would Tencent also having a stake in the case change that?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
systemvoltage 6y ago
That's a terrifying idea. Horrifying. I absolutely detest this idea of third party app stores. Please tell me why this is a good idea when literally your entire life and its contents are contained in this palm sized device. Do you really want sideloading of apps that asks average joes for ransomware? We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years.
- dylan-m 6y ago
  > We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years. They are, and, if you look around, they're winning: billions of people use Windows, MacOS and desktop Linux, safely, to do all manner of things. Billions of people use the web, which involves all kinds of code from all kinds of places - none of which is held hostage by a single absurdly valuable corporation - and, judging by the continuing success of that platform, I would say it's doing pretty well. You know what's terrifying? This argument is terrifying. So, you brought up the web … assuming iOS continues to be what it is, and eventually people just stop bothering to make websites: is that okay? Is that what we want?
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I actually want a phone with absolutely no app store. Just browser is fine. Given the amount of information it holds, adding any kind of apps that allow system wide access is horrifying to me. Since we don't have such phones, the next best thing is a store run by a company that can have security staff, highly paid security engineers and a whole bunch of people trying to make it secure than some reddit group that wants to distribute apps to billions of people. For that, as I said, just use a browser.
    - dylan-m 6y ago
      App store reviewers are not the people you should be trusting to make your phone secure. They can and do make mistakes, because their job is to go through a checklist, look for things they don't like, and maybe run some analysis tools that other people wrote. (I'm guessing, of course: this process is completely invisible to the general public). The people who should be making your iPhone secure are the developers at Apple who are improving how apps are sandboxed, catching and fixing security vulnerabilities throughout the OS, sometimes even with open source code and published CVE entries. If we have so little faith in those developers that we believe the last line of defence - the App Store reviewers - are the thing holding us back from disaster, then we definitely should not be using iPhones.
m3kw9 6y ago
No 3rd party apps stores will not guarantee my one click subscription cancelation Like Apple does, for example
- hamandcheese 6y ago
  The existence of a third party App Store doesn’t prevent you from voting with your feet and sticking with Apples App Store, if that’s a valuable feature to you.
  - m3kw9 6y ago
    Apple won’t allow it because of $ and because it breaks their vertical integration strategy
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
    A unregulated market for toys won’t prevent you from buying lead free toys if that’s a valuable feature to you.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      Regulation is the job of democratically elected governments and legislatures, not of companies.

But 3rd party app stores just mean a race to the bottom. The app store with the least oversight and cheapest prices would be the winner. Policies like this are good for users but bad for apps and by extension app stores.

fulafel 6y ago
Doesn't seem to happen on Android.
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  My previous experience with the PlayStore might have been different than yours. In the context of this guideline and other user focused non-tracking/permissions related things, the PlayStore is “already at bottom”.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fulafel 6y ago
    So more like race to the top?
    - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
      Races to the top are significantly slower, but possible. Trust building is really, really hard.

austhrow743 6y ago

Not to the same effect. It means if developers don’t want to play by Apple’s rules they don’t have to completely surrender the iOS market. A big enough name could just direct users to the third party App Store.

Nextgrid 6y ago
I would definitely expect a "Facebook Store" to appear if side-loading was allowed which would not only host the Facebook app itself but also provide a safe haven for all of the privacy-violating crap (in fact I'd argue that their review process would require your app to contain the FB SDK for it to be accepted).
- JiNCMG 6y ago
  Just as bad is the puppet master behind Epic... Tencent. They are dying to get all of their WeChat apps into iOS.
  - redxdev 6y ago
    Christ, what is with people thinking Tencent is behind Epic? They don't have a majority stake in Epic - Tim Sweeney does. There's zero evidence that anything Epic has done and is doing is driven by Tencent. Maybe argue about what Epic is doing based on its own merits, rather than some baseless conspiracy about Tencent.
    - JiNCMG 6y ago
      And Tencent approached Spotify and others investments to join in on court case.
      - redxdev 6y ago
        Even if that's true (I haven't seen any reports about Tencent pushing their investments to join the case), it's almost as if it'd benefit a lot of companies to not have to deal with Apple's restrictions. I'll ask again - do you actually have something to say about the merit of the case itself rather than just conspiracies about Tencent? Why is anything you mentioned bad? For argument's sake let's say Apple is in the wrong here and Epic is in the right. Why would Tencent also having a stake in the case change that?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

systemvoltage 6y ago

That's a terrifying idea. Horrifying. I absolutely detest this idea of third party app stores. Please tell me why this is a good idea when literally your entire life and its contents are contained in this palm sized device. Do you really want sideloading of apps that asks average joes for ransomware? We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years.

dylan-m 6y ago
> We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years. They are, and, if you look around, they're winning: billions of people use Windows, MacOS and desktop Linux, safely, to do all manner of things. Billions of people use the web, which involves all kinds of code from all kinds of places - none of which is held hostage by a single absurdly valuable corporation - and, judging by the continuing success of that platform, I would say it's doing pretty well. You know what's terrifying? This argument is terrifying. So, you brought up the web … assuming iOS continues to be what it is, and eventually people just stop bothering to make websites: is that okay? Is that what we want?
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I actually want a phone with absolutely no app store. Just browser is fine. Given the amount of information it holds, adding any kind of apps that allow system wide access is horrifying to me. Since we don't have such phones, the next best thing is a store run by a company that can have security staff, highly paid security engineers and a whole bunch of people trying to make it secure than some reddit group that wants to distribute apps to billions of people. For that, as I said, just use a browser.
  - dylan-m 6y ago
    App store reviewers are not the people you should be trusting to make your phone secure. They can and do make mistakes, because their job is to go through a checklist, look for things they don't like, and maybe run some analysis tools that other people wrote. (I'm guessing, of course: this process is completely invisible to the general public). The people who should be making your iPhone secure are the developers at Apple who are improving how apps are sandboxed, catching and fixing security vulnerabilities throughout the OS, sometimes even with open source code and published CVE entries. If we have so little faith in those developers that we believe the last line of defence - the App Store reviewers - are the thing holding us back from disaster, then we definitely should not be using iPhones.

m3kw9 6y ago

No 3rd party apps stores will not guarantee my one click subscription cancelation Like Apple does, for example

hamandcheese 6y ago
The existence of a third party App Store doesn’t prevent you from voting with your feet and sticking with Apples App Store, if that’s a valuable feature to you.
- m3kw9 6y ago
  Apple won’t allow it because of $ and because it breaks their vertical integration strategy
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  A unregulated market for toys won’t prevent you from buying lead free toys if that’s a valuable feature to you.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    Regulation is the job of democratically elected governments and legislatures, not of companies.