5 ms·

It's not just about the capital owners. The actual people chopping down rainforests for palm oil plantations are formerly impoverished farmers. You can stop cor

by Aunche 6y ago

It's not just about the capital owners. The actual people chopping down rainforests for palm oil plantations are formerly impoverished farmers. You can stop corporations from buying from them, but you're hurting these poorer communities the most.

Hokusai 6y ago
> you're hurting these poorer communities the most. My point is that redistributing wealth in a better way, we would get less opposition to upgrade our production means and people like that poor farmers and others will get a bigger piece of the cake in a more healthy environment and conserving their culture and land. I agree with you, thou. The current mindset is that the super-rich are super-rich and their wealth cannot be touched. So, we are left with limited options on how to manage with the scraps. If we think out of the box and realize that we can redistribute wealth better, there will be still very rich people but also farmers would get a more fair price for their contribution.
- Avicebron 6y ago
  This is key. It's this cultural blind spot where we gloss over the fact that these people are impoverished and so desperate that they would destroy the home around them, partly because we allow a tiny fraction of humanity to amass absurd wealth. Then we double down by making it socially acceptable for them to leverage that wealth into making it untouchable and ever-growing. If we just took this situation as strictly unacceptable, then we are working with a much larger range of options. The idea that big reward == all that innovation needed is pretty sick. It assumes all it takes is innovation to solve literal planet scale problems.
  - nickff 6y ago
    Well, innovation in agriculture has actually reduced the amount of land used for farming in more developed countries while increasing production.
    - xg15 6y ago
      Yes, becaused the developed countries simply import their goods from non-developed countries.
tuatoru 6y ago
> The actual people chopping down rainforests for palm oil plantations are formerly impoverished farmers. The people chopping down rainforest and planting oil palms are dispossessed, former farmers. The people making them do it are wealthy and politically well connected who arrange to have their land confiscated.
- sul_tasto 6y ago
  I saw the same thing in Latin America: farmers dispossessed by banana plantations.
- Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
  Deforestation in Brazil was almost stopped when Bolsonaro came into office and has surged since then. For me this is one of the primary reasons why i worry about the future of our civilisation: every nature reserve, every protected animal, every small victory against ecological destruction can so easily be lost again. Those who wish to protect must be on guard every day and win every fight. Those who wish to destroy must only win once and can choose the best time.
  - munificent 6y ago
    As they say, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. It's worth it.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      There are ways to construct constitutions such that no one person in a democracy has the power to do this much damage. E.g. only a multi-participatory and diverse parliament—and crucially not any government; especially not any president—has the power to enact laws which can cause such a damage. In a successful democracy, the people don’t have the option to vote them self a dictator.
      - cranekam 6y ago
        Switzerland is perhaps an example of this. There's no president — the head of the federal government is a 7-member Federal Council elected by the parliament, with representation proportional to parliament. This means that politics is generally more consensus-driven and less subject to extreme views. Swiss politics also makes heavy use of referendums, and any aspect of federal/cantonal/local law can be decided in a referendum if there's enough support. https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik/uebersicht/politisches-system-der-schweiz---fakten-und-zahlen.html https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik/ue... Note: I am a recent transplant to Switzerland so I'm still learning the ways in which the Swiss system has advantages and, crucially, disadvantages (I'd guess stalemate/slow progress are some).

by Aunche 6y ago

Hokusai 6y ago

> you're hurting these poorer communities the most. My point is that redistributing wealth in a better way, we would get less opposition to upgrade our production means and people like that poor farmers and others will get a bigger piece of the cake in a more healthy environment and conserving their culture and land. I agree with you, thou. The current mindset is that the super-rich are super-rich and their wealth cannot be touched. So, we are left with limited options on how to manage with the scraps. If we think out of the box and realize that we can redistribute wealth better, there will be still very rich people but also farmers would get a more fair price for their contribution.

Avicebron 6y ago
This is key. It's this cultural blind spot where we gloss over the fact that these people are impoverished and so desperate that they would destroy the home around them, partly because we allow a tiny fraction of humanity to amass absurd wealth. Then we double down by making it socially acceptable for them to leverage that wealth into making it untouchable and ever-growing. If we just took this situation as strictly unacceptable, then we are working with a much larger range of options. The idea that big reward == all that innovation needed is pretty sick. It assumes all it takes is innovation to solve literal planet scale problems.
- nickff 6y ago
  Well, innovation in agriculture has actually reduced the amount of land used for farming in more developed countries while increasing production.
  - xg15 6y ago
    Yes, becaused the developed countries simply import their goods from non-developed countries.

tuatoru 6y ago

> The actual people chopping down rainforests for palm oil plantations are formerly impoverished farmers. The people chopping down rainforest and planting oil palms are dispossessed, former farmers. The people making them do it are wealthy and politically well connected who arrange to have their land confiscated.

sul_tasto 6y ago
I saw the same thing in Latin America: farmers dispossessed by banana plantations.
Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
Deforestation in Brazil was almost stopped when Bolsonaro came into office and has surged since then. For me this is one of the primary reasons why i worry about the future of our civilisation: every nature reserve, every protected animal, every small victory against ecological destruction can so easily be lost again. Those who wish to protect must be on guard every day and win every fight. Those who wish to destroy must only win once and can choose the best time.
- munificent 6y ago
  As they say, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. It's worth it.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    There are ways to construct constitutions such that no one person in a democracy has the power to do this much damage. E.g. only a multi-participatory and diverse parliament—and crucially not any government; especially not any president—has the power to enact laws which can cause such a damage. In a successful democracy, the people don’t have the option to vote them self a dictator.
    - cranekam 6y ago
      Switzerland is perhaps an example of this. There's no president — the head of the federal government is a 7-member Federal Council elected by the parliament, with representation proportional to parliament. This means that politics is generally more consensus-driven and less subject to extreme views. Swiss politics also makes heavy use of referendums, and any aspect of federal/cantonal/local law can be decided in a referendum if there's enough support. https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik/uebersicht/politisches-system-der-schweiz---fakten-und-zahlen.html https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik/ue... Note: I am a recent transplant to Switzerland so I'm still learning the ways in which the Swiss system has advantages and, crucially, disadvantages (I'd guess stalemate/slow progress are some).