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> Oh, come on. All of that stuff is now roundly condemned, or at least very controversial. And? Does it make the past disappear? > What makes liberal democrac

by disown 6y ago

> Oh, come on. All of that stuff is now roundly condemned, or at least very controversial. And? Does it make the past disappear? > What makes liberal democracies better is not that they've been perfect and blameless throughout history, but they're structured to work through their faults and allow progress. That applies even more to china don't you think? No country has changed or progressed so drastically in the past 70 years. Also, democracies don't always progress. After all, it was a democracy that gave us nazi germany. > If the US had been run by an oligarchical one-party state of Southern elites (a la the CCP), it'd still probably have literal chattel slavery. But instead it was a democracy with slaves? So aren't you really attacking democracy here and actually agreeing with me? Also, the same two parties running the US in 1860 are the same ones running the US today. The US was never run by a one-party state of the South. The US has been run by the same two parties for nearly 2 centuries. China has been run by the same party for 70 years. Your argument is actually defending political stability and consistency. > You're confusing righteousness with self-righteousness and a kind of deluded evil. No I am not. You are. That's why I am calling you out. From ancient greece to the founding fathers: democracy is bad. You: democracy is perfect and always progressing. Slaving owning Southern elites are bad. Oops it was created by a democracy. Nazism is bad. Oops it was created by a democracy. Genocide is bad. Oops democracies have exterminated more nations than the nazis. As I said, people who think they or their system are perfect are the evil we have to watch out for. After all, if you believe you, your system, your god, your whatever is perfect, then it means others are not and hence gives you an excuse to commit all kinds of horrors.

ardy42 6y ago
> So aren't you really attacking democracy here and actually agreeing with me? So what is your position anyway, at least vis-à-vis Westerners and China? >> You're confusing righteousness with self-righteousness and a kind of deluded evil. > No I am not. You are. That's why I am calling you out. I'm no so sure. > From ancient greece to the founding fathers: democracy is bad. You: democracy is perfect and always progressing. Huh? The founding fathers thought unchecked direct democracy was bad, but that's not what we're talking about. They developed a system in response that which is frequently also called democracy. > As I said, people who think they or their system are perfect are the evil we have to watch out for. You're dealing in straw men: neither of your interlocutors are actually claiming "their system is perfect."
- disown 6y ago
  > So what is your position anyway, at least vis-à-vis Westerners and China? Why do I need to have a position? For all the complaints about foreign interference, we sure do love to meddle in chinese affairs. Also, it's not "westerners" and china. It's our greedy little elites and greedy little chinese elites and all the propagandists that the greedy elites hired to peddle nonsense. Look at this thread. It's mostly propagandists ( including the author ) and a few ramblings from the ill-informed ( thanks to the propagandists ). Like almost every anti-china propaganda on traditional and social media. > Huh? The founding fathers thought unchecked direct democracy was bad, but that's not what we're talking about. So they thought democracy was bad? Isn't that what I wrote? > They developed a system in response that which is frequently also called democracy. They developed a system where a handful of wealthy rich white landowners got to vote. Not exactly democracy by any stretch of the imagination. They developed a system for themselves and called it democracy. > You're dealing in straw men: neither of your interlocutors are actually claiming "their system is perfect." Nope. I may have exaggerated for effect but the argument still holds. I clearly showed "china bad" and "democracy good" is nonsense. Democracy is and can be bad. Try it for yourself. Since 1776, "democracies" have been the source of the greatest and most numerous evils. Go down the list - genocides, slavery, wars, etc. But we don't really give a rats ass about democracy do we. So what are we really after? Why the sudden focus on "democracy" in china but nothing about democracy in say saudi arabia? Oh that's right, it's just state propaganda. Carry on.
tatersolid 6y ago
> The US has been run by the same two parties for nearly 2 centuries. China has been run by the same party for 70 years Two parties allows for dissent, compromise, and differing leadership. Both US parties have evolved and exchanged platform ideas constantly over that period. Leaders from both parties have been elected to all levels of government. One party with no term limits doesn’t generate the same outcome: the people have no choice and no voice.

by disown 6y ago

ardy42 6y ago

> So aren't you really attacking democracy here and actually agreeing with me? So what is your position anyway, at least vis-à-vis Westerners and China? >> You're confusing righteousness with self-righteousness and a kind of deluded evil. > No I am not. You are. That's why I am calling you out. I'm no so sure. > From ancient greece to the founding fathers: democracy is bad. You: democracy is perfect and always progressing. Huh? The founding fathers thought unchecked direct democracy was bad, but that's not what we're talking about. They developed a system in response that which is frequently also called democracy. > As I said, people who think they or their system are perfect are the evil we have to watch out for. You're dealing in straw men: neither of your interlocutors are actually claiming "their system is perfect."

disown 6y ago
> So what is your position anyway, at least vis-à-vis Westerners and China? Why do I need to have a position? For all the complaints about foreign interference, we sure do love to meddle in chinese affairs. Also, it's not "westerners" and china. It's our greedy little elites and greedy little chinese elites and all the propagandists that the greedy elites hired to peddle nonsense. Look at this thread. It's mostly propagandists ( including the author ) and a few ramblings from the ill-informed ( thanks to the propagandists ). Like almost every anti-china propaganda on traditional and social media. > Huh? The founding fathers thought unchecked direct democracy was bad, but that's not what we're talking about. So they thought democracy was bad? Isn't that what I wrote? > They developed a system in response that which is frequently also called democracy. They developed a system where a handful of wealthy rich white landowners got to vote. Not exactly democracy by any stretch of the imagination. They developed a system for themselves and called it democracy. > You're dealing in straw men: neither of your interlocutors are actually claiming "their system is perfect." Nope. I may have exaggerated for effect but the argument still holds. I clearly showed "china bad" and "democracy good" is nonsense. Democracy is and can be bad. Try it for yourself. Since 1776, "democracies" have been the source of the greatest and most numerous evils. Go down the list - genocides, slavery, wars, etc. But we don't really give a rats ass about democracy do we. So what are we really after? Why the sudden focus on "democracy" in china but nothing about democracy in say saudi arabia? Oh that's right, it's just state propaganda. Carry on.

tatersolid 6y ago

> The US has been run by the same two parties for nearly 2 centuries. China has been run by the same party for 70 years Two parties allows for dissent, compromise, and differing leadership. Both US parties have evolved and exchanged platform ideas constantly over that period. Leaders from both parties have been elected to all levels of government. One party with no term limits doesn’t generate the same outcome: the people have no choice and no voice.