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The key for those with informal power is how to leverage it to leverage the formal. Get managers to trust you, and you can have both.

user5994461 6y ago
That's still nowhere near the power of official management. At a bare minimum a manager can summon their underlings, they will come and listen because they depend on him for promotions and have to make a good impression. Try to get your teams or coworkers to do some tasks as an engineer. You will quickly realize you have no power.
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  I mean, this varies team by team and company by company. To spit an anecdote into the bucket, I asked some teammates to help me take care of a problem, and they did - and I don't think I hold a particularly large cache of informal power.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Send a meeting invitation and see how many people show up. Preferably a videocall or a presentation, something not too attractive to come to. Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      > Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes. And then do it not as a random employee, but as the senior employee who isn't technically anyone's manager but who is known for having saved the last 3 major projects by pointing out pivotal details and coordinating with other teams, and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart. YMMV, but let's compare apples to apples.
      - mathgladiator 6y ago
        It's strange when one has this power, and managers do fear it. They learn to set expectations and modes of engagement with senior ICs. What's really fun is when you can make a bunch of managers super nervous by mentioning "You know, we should re-org this." and this can trigger all sorts of shit.
      - user5994461 6y ago
        > and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart Too bad it's only a handful of people. Well, maybe less than a handful because most of the people you saved in the past 3 years have moved on to another company or another role. They're not here for you anymore. However the manager got that power instantly since the minute he joined, by virtue of the position. It's not an apple to apple comparison indeed.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - xxpor 6y ago
      Uh, I can't say I've ever had this happen to me as an IC, even when I was brand new. Maybe one or two people will decline, but it's almost always because they just have a conflict or something. What you describe sounds totally dysfunctional. If someone is calling a meeting, I assume it's for a good reason from their perspective (even if I think the assumptions they're making are dumb or something).
    - pavel_lishin 6y ago
      If the invitation has no other context, I would PM the person calling the meeting asking what's going on - whether they're the newest hire, or the CTO. If the meeting is something where I'm needed, I'll attend, whether it was scheduled by the newest hire or the CTO. If it's not, I won't, etc., etc.
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      The manager's job is to communicate necessary information to the whole team. The IC isn't. If a manager starts abusing that presumption to schedule irrelevant meetings, people will respond appropriately.
      - mathgladiator 6y ago
        or, worse, if the senior IC doesn't show up, then no one takes it seriously.
aeternum 6y ago
Exactly. We've gotten rid of managers or created brand new roles in order to retain key engineers. Managers are often easier to replace than these engineers. If you're an IC that is providing clear & visible value to upper-management you likely wield more power than you think.
- kelnos 6y ago
  The opposite of that is more common I think, and really pisses me off. More often, I think, upper management will protect the lower managers and side with them whenever there's a dispute with an IC, even intentionally pushing the IC out. My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers. And all of this just goes to reinforce the existing power structures.
  - nip180 6y ago
    > My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers. Avoiding situations like this is why we praise failure. When someone says “I made a mistake, this is what I learned, and this is how I will avoid making the same mistake” I give them much more respect then when they are just accepting bad outcomes. Edit: And when I work with someone for longer than a year and they haven’t claimed any failures I assume they are either covering them up, not noticing them, or not engaging in risky enough behavior.
john4534243 6y ago
In other words you are asking to suck managers dick irrespective of your skill set and work ethic.

user5994461 6y ago

That's still nowhere near the power of official management. At a bare minimum a manager can summon their underlings, they will come and listen because they depend on him for promotions and have to make a good impression. Try to get your teams or coworkers to do some tasks as an engineer. You will quickly realize you have no power.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
I mean, this varies team by team and company by company. To spit an anecdote into the bucket, I asked some teammates to help me take care of a problem, and they did - and I don't think I hold a particularly large cache of informal power.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Send a meeting invitation and see how many people show up. Preferably a videocall or a presentation, something not too attractive to come to. Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    > Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes. And then do it not as a random employee, but as the senior employee who isn't technically anyone's manager but who is known for having saved the last 3 major projects by pointing out pivotal details and coordinating with other teams, and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart. YMMV, but let's compare apples to apples.
    - mathgladiator 6y ago
      It's strange when one has this power, and managers do fear it. They learn to set expectations and modes of engagement with senior ICs. What's really fun is when you can make a bunch of managers super nervous by mentioning "You know, we should re-org this." and this can trigger all sorts of shit.
    - user5994461 6y ago
      > and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart Too bad it's only a handful of people. Well, maybe less than a handful because most of the people you saved in the past 3 years have moved on to another company or another role. They're not here for you anymore. However the manager got that power instantly since the minute he joined, by virtue of the position. It's not an apple to apple comparison indeed.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - xxpor 6y ago
    Uh, I can't say I've ever had this happen to me as an IC, even when I was brand new. Maybe one or two people will decline, but it's almost always because they just have a conflict or something. What you describe sounds totally dysfunctional. If someone is calling a meeting, I assume it's for a good reason from their perspective (even if I think the assumptions they're making are dumb or something).
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    If the invitation has no other context, I would PM the person calling the meeting asking what's going on - whether they're the newest hire, or the CTO. If the meeting is something where I'm needed, I'll attend, whether it was scheduled by the newest hire or the CTO. If it's not, I won't, etc., etc.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    The manager's job is to communicate necessary information to the whole team. The IC isn't. If a manager starts abusing that presumption to schedule irrelevant meetings, people will respond appropriately.
    - mathgladiator 6y ago
      or, worse, if the senior IC doesn't show up, then no one takes it seriously.

aeternum 6y ago

Exactly. We've gotten rid of managers or created brand new roles in order to retain key engineers. Managers are often easier to replace than these engineers. If you're an IC that is providing clear & visible value to upper-management you likely wield more power than you think.

kelnos 6y ago
The opposite of that is more common I think, and really pisses me off. More often, I think, upper management will protect the lower managers and side with them whenever there's a dispute with an IC, even intentionally pushing the IC out. My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers. And all of this just goes to reinforce the existing power structures.
- nip180 6y ago
  > My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers. Avoiding situations like this is why we praise failure. When someone says “I made a mistake, this is what I learned, and this is how I will avoid making the same mistake” I give them much more respect then when they are just accepting bad outcomes. Edit: And when I work with someone for longer than a year and they haven’t claimed any failures I assume they are either covering them up, not noticing them, or not engaging in risky enough behavior.

john4534243 6y ago

In other words you are asking to suck managers dick irrespective of your skill set and work ethic.