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Here is a question I have not seen a satisfactory answer for. Why is having an App on iOS a must have? It seems like any discussion about the market fairness of

by zaphar 6y ago

Here is a question I have not seen a satisfactory answer for. Why is having an App on iOS a must have? It seems like any discussion about the market fairness of Apples policies requires a shared understanding of how necessary the ecosystem actually is. If you can freely choose not to deploy to that ecosystem then you can vote with your "wallet" so to speak. If you can't freely choose however then there is an argument to be made regarding if they distort the market unfairly.

itake 6y ago
I own a small app and iOS's free organic app search results drive 98% of my user base right now. I could see it being much more challenging to build an app if you have to develop alternative marketing channels. Personally, alternative marketing channels have yet to work for me.
- zaphar 6y ago
  Do you also have an android app? What I'm asking I guess is not why do you need the AppStore when you are on iOS. But more why do you have to be on iOS in the first place?
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    Do they have to be or want to be? If they want access to the market then it's a "Want to be" not a "have to be" because of the opportunities apparent.
  - itake 6y ago
    I have a react native app and it runs in both stores. The iOS users drive most of my revenue. My app could not survive without the organic search traffic from Apple. I guess I was a bit misleading in my original comment. 98% of my users come from iOS and Android organic search results. I haven't been able to find any profitable non-store marketing channels.
    - Qahlel 6y ago
      iPhone users tend to buy "more" from store. Android users don't really care about apps. It's not Apple or Google. It's users who are paying.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        Checking multiple sources, Google Play store revenue was a bit over half the Apple App Store last year, so around the 8 billion mark for GPA and 14 billion for AAS.
- bitxbit 6y ago
  But that’s something Apple can quantify. In your case it appears paying 30% is justifiable. Why can’t they just change it to either pro-rata or flat fee based on active install base?
  - itake 6y ago
    Because Apple probably loses money reviewing my app and needs the bigger players to cover the costs :)
Razengan 6y ago
> Why is having an App on iOS a must have? This may be one possible reason: https://i.imgur.com/kPXs9NO.png https://i.imgur.com/kPXs9NO.png
- zaphar 6y ago
  That is the most compelling answer I've seen so far.
  - Bud 6y ago
    Yes. And it also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Apple deserves its 30% cut and is offering substantial value.
    - pier25 6y ago
      It doesn't prove anything. Here's another interpretation: iOS devices are more expensive hence people that use them can spend more money on apps.
      - Razengan 6y ago
        There is no need for interpretations. This is a fact that developers and publishers generally make more money on iOS.
        pier25 6y ago
        I agree, which only solidifies the argument that it's naive to think a company in the mobile space can ignore iOS.
        Razengan 6y ago
        It’s just as naive to think that a company shouldn’t have to pay anything or play by the rules of such a valuable ecosystem.
isignal 6y ago
You can’t keep looking at everything through the narrow definition of local choice. By that count, no anti trust action was necessary against Microsoft - users were always free to install Netscape. Comcast does not stop users from laying fiber to their home, so what’s wrong with Comcast? The issue is whether making your own hardware also allows you to set policies on the software that can be run on it. One viewpoint is that these are separate industries and a dominance in one (smartphones) should not allow you to dominate the other (software distribution). There can be a legitimate discussion about what the boundaries are (operating system vs browser apps in case of Microsoft)
- nodamage 6y ago
  The anti-trust claims that succeeded against Microsoft involved Microsoft forcing other companies to ship IE instead of Netscape. The coercion of third-parties is really where the anti-trust violations came from. Microsoft also held 95% of the operating system market at the time which was a big factor in the outcome.
pier25 6y ago
> Why is having an App on iOS a must have? Because iOS represents about +60% of the revenue in the global mobile market, probably even more in some countries where it has a bigger market share. It's naive to think a business with a product/service can just decide to not have a presence on iOS. It's not even completely about the iOS revenue either, but the simple expectation from users that a service has to be on as many platforms as possible. For example, I wouldn't be a Spotify user if I couldn't use it on all my devices.
- veilrap 6y ago
  I'm more willing to spend money on iOS than other platforms, because of how Apple manages the platform. Forcing Apple to change their platform away from the reasons why people like it is absurd. Apple does not have the largest market share by OS, Android does. Other app stores and sideloading are already very widely available.
  - pier25 6y ago
    > I'm more willing to spend money on iOS than other platforms, because of how Apple manages the platform. I've heard this argument from iOS users who have never really used Android for a significant amount of time. I have been using both Android and iOS devices for almost a decade now and there's not much of a difference. In fact I'd say the experience is better on Android. For instance, if you uninstall a paid app you just recently bought you get an automatic instant refund. Good luck getting a refund on iOS.
    - wruza 6y ago
      And good luck finding an app on android that is not a permission tricking trash which doesn't even work how you wanted. That offsets an idea of refunds a little, "we get your AB and geo, and send your money back on demand, hehe". I'm using android for a while¹, and I already hate that platform for its freedom, the freedom to bend me as a user however third-parties want. Not planning to spend a decade here, but even if you're okay with it, why should apple users feel the same? Why must anyone have an android phone for apple to retain the status quo? I can't tell for sure, but all top commenters itt just feel like being those guys I wholeheartedly hate on the playstore. Some of them even admit that apple does a best thing for a user, but must be regulated down to not being able to do that. To hell with them, I don't want their crapware anyway. ¹ not even a year tbh, but not in just three-day test mode as well. I'm definitely beyond the "setup and try playing with it" stage right now.
d0100 6y ago
My product needs to be in a user's device. It has to be there to work. I don't care what device, it's features, security, app review, privacy, it just has to be a device. My users also want my product in their device. They will download it from the App Store or from my website (sideloading). Apple has no business getting 30% from a business that happens despite itself. Apple is just rent seeking and monopolizing access to people. If Apple didn't gut their browser, it'd be fine. My users want push notifications. My users want to persist data from my product in their device. They want to use their device's features with my product. And they want native performance.
nodamage 6y ago
It's not. People attempt to justify it by claiming "you will make more money if you sell on iOS", but there are plenty of Android-only apps that are doing just fine. At any rate, just because a platform is popular and will make you more money doesn't mean you have a legal right to force that platform owner to do business with you. (Unless it is ruled as an "essential facility", which is what Epic claims, but I think is a huge stretch and not likely to be accepted by the court.)
cma 6y ago
Apple controls the browser and cripples it for app use, like no multitouch in fullscreen pages.

by zaphar 6y ago

itake 6y ago

I own a small app and iOS's free organic app search results drive 98% of my user base right now. I could see it being much more challenging to build an app if you have to develop alternative marketing channels. Personally, alternative marketing channels have yet to work for me.

zaphar 6y ago
Do you also have an android app? What I'm asking I guess is not why do you need the AppStore when you are on iOS. But more why do you have to be on iOS in the first place?
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  Do they have to be or want to be? If they want access to the market then it's a "Want to be" not a "have to be" because of the opportunities apparent.
- itake 6y ago
  I have a react native app and it runs in both stores. The iOS users drive most of my revenue. My app could not survive without the organic search traffic from Apple. I guess I was a bit misleading in my original comment. 98% of my users come from iOS and Android organic search results. I haven't been able to find any profitable non-store marketing channels.
  - Qahlel 6y ago
    iPhone users tend to buy "more" from store. Android users don't really care about apps. It's not Apple or Google. It's users who are paying.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      Checking multiple sources, Google Play store revenue was a bit over half the Apple App Store last year, so around the 8 billion mark for GPA and 14 billion for AAS.
bitxbit 6y ago
But that’s something Apple can quantify. In your case it appears paying 30% is justifiable. Why can’t they just change it to either pro-rata or flat fee based on active install base?
- itake 6y ago
  Because Apple probably loses money reviewing my app and needs the bigger players to cover the costs :)

Razengan 6y ago

> Why is having an App on iOS a must have? This may be one possible reason: https://i.imgur.com/kPXs9NO.png https://i.imgur.com/kPXs9NO.png

zaphar 6y ago
That is the most compelling answer I've seen so far.
- Bud 6y ago
  Yes. And it also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Apple deserves its 30% cut and is offering substantial value.
  - pier25 6y ago
    It doesn't prove anything. Here's another interpretation: iOS devices are more expensive hence people that use them can spend more money on apps.
    - Razengan 6y ago
      There is no need for interpretations. This is a fact that developers and publishers generally make more money on iOS.
      - pier25 6y ago
        I agree, which only solidifies the argument that it's naive to think a company in the mobile space can ignore iOS.
        Razengan 6y ago
        It’s just as naive to think that a company shouldn’t have to pay anything or play by the rules of such a valuable ecosystem.

isignal 6y ago

You can’t keep looking at everything through the narrow definition of local choice. By that count, no anti trust action was necessary against Microsoft - users were always free to install Netscape. Comcast does not stop users from laying fiber to their home, so what’s wrong with Comcast? The issue is whether making your own hardware also allows you to set policies on the software that can be run on it. One viewpoint is that these are separate industries and a dominance in one (smartphones) should not allow you to dominate the other (software distribution). There can be a legitimate discussion about what the boundaries are (operating system vs browser apps in case of Microsoft)

nodamage 6y ago
The anti-trust claims that succeeded against Microsoft involved Microsoft forcing other companies to ship IE instead of Netscape. The coercion of third-parties is really where the anti-trust violations came from. Microsoft also held 95% of the operating system market at the time which was a big factor in the outcome.

pier25 6y ago

> Why is having an App on iOS a must have? Because iOS represents about +60% of the revenue in the global mobile market, probably even more in some countries where it has a bigger market share. It's naive to think a business with a product/service can just decide to not have a presence on iOS. It's not even completely about the iOS revenue either, but the simple expectation from users that a service has to be on as many platforms as possible. For example, I wouldn't be a Spotify user if I couldn't use it on all my devices.

veilrap 6y ago
I'm more willing to spend money on iOS than other platforms, because of how Apple manages the platform. Forcing Apple to change their platform away from the reasons why people like it is absurd. Apple does not have the largest market share by OS, Android does. Other app stores and sideloading are already very widely available.
- pier25 6y ago
  > I'm more willing to spend money on iOS than other platforms, because of how Apple manages the platform. I've heard this argument from iOS users who have never really used Android for a significant amount of time. I have been using both Android and iOS devices for almost a decade now and there's not much of a difference. In fact I'd say the experience is better on Android. For instance, if you uninstall a paid app you just recently bought you get an automatic instant refund. Good luck getting a refund on iOS.
  - wruza 6y ago
    And good luck finding an app on android that is not a permission tricking trash which doesn't even work how you wanted. That offsets an idea of refunds a little, "we get your AB and geo, and send your money back on demand, hehe". I'm using android for a while¹, and I already hate that platform for its freedom, the freedom to bend me as a user however third-parties want. Not planning to spend a decade here, but even if you're okay with it, why should apple users feel the same? Why must anyone have an android phone for apple to retain the status quo? I can't tell for sure, but all top commenters itt just feel like being those guys I wholeheartedly hate on the playstore. Some of them even admit that apple does a best thing for a user, but must be regulated down to not being able to do that. To hell with them, I don't want their crapware anyway. ¹ not even a year tbh, but not in just three-day test mode as well. I'm definitely beyond the "setup and try playing with it" stage right now.

d0100 6y ago

My product needs to be in a user's device. It has to be there to work. I don't care what device, it's features, security, app review, privacy, it just has to be a device. My users also want my product in their device. They will download it from the App Store or from my website (sideloading). Apple has no business getting 30% from a business that happens despite itself. Apple is just rent seeking and monopolizing access to people. If Apple didn't gut their browser, it'd be fine. My users want push notifications. My users want to persist data from my product in their device. They want to use their device's features with my product. And they want native performance.

nodamage 6y ago

It's not. People attempt to justify it by claiming "you will make more money if you sell on iOS", but there are plenty of Android-only apps that are doing just fine. At any rate, just because a platform is popular and will make you more money doesn't mean you have a legal right to force that platform owner to do business with you. (Unless it is ruled as an "essential facility", which is what Epic claims, but I think is a huge stretch and not likely to be accepted by the court.)

cma 6y ago

Apple controls the browser and cripples it for app use, like no multitouch in fullscreen pages.