4 ms·

> The supremacy of vinyl over CDs is the result of several factors. And then goes on to cover none of those factors. I like the topic and am interested in more

> The supremacy of vinyl over CDs is the result of several factors. And then goes on to cover none of those factors. I like the topic and am interested in more info, but this tiny article is written very poorly. I would love to read a deep dive on the pros and cons of the two, especially about how each medium holds up over the long term. Isn't vinyl much better for archival purposes because cd's can start to disintegrate over time? Or have manufacturing processes improved?

brundolf 6y ago
Speaking anecdotally: people I know who buy vinyl tend to do it for the novelty/because they're audiophiles. These are the kind of people who buy/build fancy sound systems specifically for listening to music. They usually get a vinyl record player to go with it. Whereas CDs are stuck in this awkward middle-ground: they're not as evocative/interesting as records for the enthusiast, but they're not as convenient as streaming or even MP3's for the casual listener. Personally I still buy a CD on occasion when I want to actually own an album, because it's a high-quality source that's easy to get onto a computer. But there aren't a ton of usecases for doing so these days.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > because it's a high-quality source I wonder - does anyone produce and distribute streaming audio at a higher quality than CD? A lot of people talk like CD audio is a definitive source, but I mean it's still a limited sampling rate and a limited bit-depth.
  - thatcat 6y ago
    The full bit-depth is present on the audio cd. You can buy 24-bit 196 hz flac from tidal as a download or you can rip it from a cd.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > The full bit-depth is present on the audio cd. You can buy 24-bit 196 hz flac from tidal as a download or you can rip it from a cd. Well this is exactly what I mean... what do you mean by 'full' bit-depth? It's finite. It's 16-bit on a CD. It could be higher. If you rip 24-bit audio from a 16-bit CD... you don't actually get any more data, do you? What would be the point in doing that? I'm asking - does anyone sell audio mastered and distributed at 24-bit? Or 32-bit? Better than CD quality. According to the comments here 'yes' so it clearly isn't 'full'.
      - kilburn 6y ago
        24bit audio makes sense in the studio to avoid compounding errors from all the effects used to produce the track, but it doesn't make sense for the final piece because 16-bit perfectly represents everything we humans are able to hear [1]. https://web.archive.org/web/20200202124704/https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200202124704/https://people.xi...
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        > 16-bit perfectly represents everything we humans are able to hear [1] [1]: > It's true that 16 bit linear PCM audio does not quite cover the entire theoretical dynamic range of the human ear in ideal conditions.
        kilburn 6y ago
        Keep reading. Later on: > Thus, 16 bit audio can go considerably deeper than 96dB. With use of shaped dither, which moves quantization noise energy into frequencies where it's harder to hear, the effective dynamic range of 16 bit audio reaches 120dB in practice [13], more than fifteen times deeper than the 96dB claim. > 120dB is greater than the difference between a mosquito somewhere in the same room and a jackhammer a foot away.... or the difference between a deserted 'soundproof' room and a sound loud enough to cause hearing damage in seconds. > 16 bits is enough to store all we can hear, and will be enough forever.
  - locusofself 6y ago
    Radiohead sold downloads of their recent album at 24bit96khz for download. Neil Young invested in the "Pono" player which was supposed to be an iPod replacement with a high-bitrate lossless audio store/ecosystem but it failed I believe.
  - brundolf 6y ago
    Tidal does some amount of higher-than-CD-quality streaming: https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-What-Audio-Quality-Does-TIDAL-HiFi-Offer- https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-Wha...
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  Agreed. Another use case for CD's over vinyl used to be in your car while driving, for which vinyl is unsuitable, but that has become almost entirely digital now. If the physical media are for at-home listening only, then there's not as much advantage to CD's smaller size and greater resistance to small shocks.
rossdavidh 6y ago
...and at the end, add "by the way none of this matters because digital". I got the strong impression that the person(s) writing this article was doing it because they had been told to, not because they found it interesting.
lucideer 6y ago
As a casual buyer of a few vinyl records, I feel they're mostly popular for two reasons: 1. physical aesthetic reasons 2. audiophile selection simplicity w.r.t. dynamic range (a higher ratio of available vinyl has reasonable DR characteristics compared to CDs/downloads)[0] ... number 2 above is more oft-cited, but I think number 1 above is significant (probably moreso). Anyone investing not just money, but also space and inconvenience (they're not "synced" to all your devices, it's more difficult to listen to tapes/CDs/vinyl while running or driving) in any physical media is doing so at least in part because of the physical nature of that object, and CDs are just not in any way an aesthetic object. Even casettes are much moreso, in a DIY/retro way. [0] http://dr.loudness-war.info/ http://dr.loudness-war.info/
malandrew 6y ago
The loudness wars are one reason for vinyl’s superiority. Digital allows sound engineers to do terrible mastering.
slothtrop 6y ago
I don't buy vinyl, because a) they are incredibly heavy and take up far more room in large quantities, b) they damage easily leading to more pops and scratches when playing (check out used vinyl in stores, see for yourself), c) they don't sound better (unless the mastering on a version of the disc has poor DR, but better versions are usually out there), d) they are more expensive. Discs are a more optimal way for me to collect, though I rarely do so and opt for digital purchases more often.
- sjm 6y ago
  Everything you said is true, but for collecting vinyl seems superior to me because disc rot is basically unavoidable, whereas well cared for records can last over a hundred years (maybe more?)
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    It's hard to predict. There have been improvements since the first generation "bronzed" CDRs such that they won't deteriorate as nearly as quickly. Most of mine will stay stored in their cases the majority of the time. I don't see my small collection as an appreciating asset so if it only lasts my lifetime, fine.
dntrkv 6y ago
The other aspect of vinyl that hasn't been mentioned is the listening experience itself is very different. You don't get the option of being an ADHD music listener. You throw some vinyl on, and you listen to it from the beginning to the end. What's funny is that I've purchased LPs that I "loved" and after listening to it on vinyl, I discover some new track that I've never actually given a real listen to. My reasons for collecting vinyl: - Supporting my favorite musicians - Collecting things is fun, especially when it's something as meaningful as music - Forces you to listen to an LP the way it should be (beginning to end) - Good presses are some of the easiest ways to get access to high quality recordings - The ceremony around putting a favorite LP on is quite nice - Admiring the simplicity of the tech compared to the quality of the output - Seeing the vinyl + artwork + any extras the artist may have included as a single piece of art. The effort that goes into the design on some LPs is absolutely amazing.

brundolf 6y ago

Speaking anecdotally: people I know who buy vinyl tend to do it for the novelty/because they're audiophiles. These are the kind of people who buy/build fancy sound systems specifically for listening to music. They usually get a vinyl record player to go with it. Whereas CDs are stuck in this awkward middle-ground: they're not as evocative/interesting as records for the enthusiast, but they're not as convenient as streaming or even MP3's for the casual listener. Personally I still buy a CD on occasion when I want to actually own an album, because it's a high-quality source that's easy to get onto a computer. But there aren't a ton of usecases for doing so these days.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> because it's a high-quality source I wonder - does anyone produce and distribute streaming audio at a higher quality than CD? A lot of people talk like CD audio is a definitive source, but I mean it's still a limited sampling rate and a limited bit-depth.
- thatcat 6y ago
  The full bit-depth is present on the audio cd. You can buy 24-bit 196 hz flac from tidal as a download or you can rip it from a cd.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > The full bit-depth is present on the audio cd. You can buy 24-bit 196 hz flac from tidal as a download or you can rip it from a cd. Well this is exactly what I mean... what do you mean by 'full' bit-depth? It's finite. It's 16-bit on a CD. It could be higher. If you rip 24-bit audio from a 16-bit CD... you don't actually get any more data, do you? What would be the point in doing that? I'm asking - does anyone sell audio mastered and distributed at 24-bit? Or 32-bit? Better than CD quality. According to the comments here 'yes' so it clearly isn't 'full'.
    - kilburn 6y ago
      24bit audio makes sense in the studio to avoid compounding errors from all the effects used to produce the track, but it doesn't make sense for the final piece because 16-bit perfectly represents everything we humans are able to hear [1]. https://web.archive.org/web/20200202124704/https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200202124704/https://people.xi...
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > 16-bit perfectly represents everything we humans are able to hear [1] [1]: > It's true that 16 bit linear PCM audio does not quite cover the entire theoretical dynamic range of the human ear in ideal conditions.
        kilburn 6y ago
        Keep reading. Later on: > Thus, 16 bit audio can go considerably deeper than 96dB. With use of shaped dither, which moves quantization noise energy into frequencies where it's harder to hear, the effective dynamic range of 16 bit audio reaches 120dB in practice [13], more than fifteen times deeper than the 96dB claim. > 120dB is greater than the difference between a mosquito somewhere in the same room and a jackhammer a foot away.... or the difference between a deserted 'soundproof' room and a sound loud enough to cause hearing damage in seconds. > 16 bits is enough to store all we can hear, and will be enough forever.
- locusofself 6y ago
  Radiohead sold downloads of their recent album at 24bit96khz for download. Neil Young invested in the "Pono" player which was supposed to be an iPod replacement with a high-bitrate lossless audio store/ecosystem but it failed I believe.
- brundolf 6y ago
  Tidal does some amount of higher-than-CD-quality streaming: https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-What-Audio-Quality-Does-TIDAL-HiFi-Offer- https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-Wha...
rossdavidh 6y ago
Agreed. Another use case for CD's over vinyl used to be in your car while driving, for which vinyl is unsuitable, but that has become almost entirely digital now. If the physical media are for at-home listening only, then there's not as much advantage to CD's smaller size and greater resistance to small shocks.

rossdavidh 6y ago

...and at the end, add "by the way none of this matters because digital". I got the strong impression that the person(s) writing this article was doing it because they had been told to, not because they found it interesting.

lucideer 6y ago

As a casual buyer of a few vinyl records, I feel they're mostly popular for two reasons: 1. physical aesthetic reasons 2. audiophile selection simplicity w.r.t. dynamic range (a higher ratio of available vinyl has reasonable DR characteristics compared to CDs/downloads)[0] ... number 2 above is more oft-cited, but I think number 1 above is significant (probably moreso). Anyone investing not just money, but also space and inconvenience (they're not "synced" to all your devices, it's more difficult to listen to tapes/CDs/vinyl while running or driving) in any physical media is doing so at least in part because of the physical nature of that object, and CDs are just not in any way an aesthetic object. Even casettes are much moreso, in a DIY/retro way. [0] http://dr.loudness-war.info/ http://dr.loudness-war.info/

malandrew 6y ago

The loudness wars are one reason for vinyl’s superiority. Digital allows sound engineers to do terrible mastering.

slothtrop 6y ago

I don't buy vinyl, because a) they are incredibly heavy and take up far more room in large quantities, b) they damage easily leading to more pops and scratches when playing (check out used vinyl in stores, see for yourself), c) they don't sound better (unless the mastering on a version of the disc has poor DR, but better versions are usually out there), d) they are more expensive. Discs are a more optimal way for me to collect, though I rarely do so and opt for digital purchases more often.

sjm 6y ago
Everything you said is true, but for collecting vinyl seems superior to me because disc rot is basically unavoidable, whereas well cared for records can last over a hundred years (maybe more?)
- slothtrop 6y ago
  It's hard to predict. There have been improvements since the first generation "bronzed" CDRs such that they won't deteriorate as nearly as quickly. Most of mine will stay stored in their cases the majority of the time. I don't see my small collection as an appreciating asset so if it only lasts my lifetime, fine.

dntrkv 6y ago

The other aspect of vinyl that hasn't been mentioned is the listening experience itself is very different. You don't get the option of being an ADHD music listener. You throw some vinyl on, and you listen to it from the beginning to the end. What's funny is that I've purchased LPs that I "loved" and after listening to it on vinyl, I discover some new track that I've never actually given a real listen to. My reasons for collecting vinyl: - Supporting my favorite musicians - Collecting things is fun, especially when it's something as meaningful as music - Forces you to listen to an LP the way it should be (beginning to end) - Good presses are some of the easiest ways to get access to high quality recordings - The ceremony around putting a favorite LP on is quite nice - Admiring the simplicity of the tech compared to the quality of the output - Seeing the vinyl + artwork + any extras the artist may have included as a single piece of art. The effort that goes into the design on some LPs is absolutely amazing.