4 ms·

So many mental health apps these days with so little high quality evidence of their effectiveness. And there are so many of these apps out there, why would som

by dawg- 6y ago

So many mental health apps these days with so little high quality evidence of their effectiveness. And there are so many of these apps out there, why would someone build their own? Maybe OP is onto something though. Could it be that the creative process and challenge of building an app to solve a personal problem is just as good a treatment for depression as the app itself?

cabaalis 6y ago
Part of my job is analyzing quality metrics surrounding depression. Everyone is failing, and uncontrolled depression is an unseen pandemic. We are in rapid innovation phase.
- jointpdf 6y ago
  Quality metrics surrounding depression? Can you elaborate? Also, are you the right person to complain to about the quality of my depression? It is quite poor and I would like get a refund.
  - cabaalis 6y ago
    "Quality metrics" is an industry term regarding hitting certain benchmarks of care in a provider's patient population to measure "quality" of care by a provider or group. Payers measure providers for various reasons using well-defined protocols. An example of a depression protocol is depression remission: (1) Was an index test performed in prior year to identify depression (2) Was a followup performed this year (3) Does the followup test indicate depression has gone into remission. There are various other measures for depression.
    - zoozla 6y ago
      The only thing I can currently measure in the app is the intensity of an emotional experience - before the process and after the process. I'm still compiling the stats, but I think the average reduction in intensity of the experience of e.g. apathy is about 40%. I really like the idea of incorporating a standard depression symptoms test into the app and then taking another test at a later stage to see the longer term change. It still won't be conclusive proof, but it would help.
- dawg- 6y ago
  I am frustrated that we feel the need to keep "innovating" when we already know how to fix depression. In no particular order: Physical activity, social participation, getting enough sunlight, and creative outlets. The problem is those things are hard. And downloading an app on your phone is easy. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?) it is still true that you reap what you sow. I'm afraid all this "innovation" around mental health is just sowing the seeds for more people spending more time sitting inside, alone, not moving, staring at screens, consuming.
  - zoozla 6y ago
    You are absolutely right that these things are the true solution to not have depression. However, they don't really work when you are already in it though. It's like telling a drowning man to start practicing his strokes or someone falling out of a plane to invent a parachute. Depression is a self sustaining problem. The depression prevents you from seeking social activities, taking care of your body and mind and being creative, This obviously makes the depression worse. Paradoxically, forcing yourself to do any of these activities makes the depression worse as well due to the internal resistance to get better. We definitely do need innovation. We need something that works, is scalable, doesn't cost $1k per month in therapy fees and doesn't have any adverse side effects. My current best guess about the future in this space is a combination of microdosing and supportive apps like mine.
tachyonbeam 6y ago
Generally speaking, it's good to have goals, a purpose, and a creative outlet. Tangentially, I know that personally, something I struggle with, that has caused me frustration, is that I often feel like in my work life, I am forced to work on projects that I think are basically bullshit. I'm being asked to implement a feature that I believe is useless, or to work on a project that my intuition tells me will get axed later, have very little or no impact, or is based on terrible design decisions and just painful to work on. That leaves me feeling powerless and unmotivated, and has pushed me into a depression in the past. As a programmer, having a side project can be a nice way to get what you can't always get at work, which is a sense of self-determination. A sense of working on something you actually believe in, something you can actually take the time to design cleanly and properly. Side projects can be a much better creative outlet than work. I hope that I can eventually find a job where I get to work on something I truly, really believe in. That's been very difficult to find so far though.
phobosanomaly 6y ago
So many are just trying to sell you something. It's like if you went to visit your Psychiatrist and they tried to sell you a time-share on your way out of the office. People deserve to be compensated for their work, obviously, but this is a space where people are looking to escape from being sold something or manipulated in some way. If someone is building the app for themselves, it's based around actually helping and doesn't have some underlying agenda that it's trying to hide under the tablecloth. Like a walk through the forest, the trees aren't reaching for your wallet when you turn around. The trees are just there to do some light photosynthesis before lunch, and then maybe make some pinecones that afternoon.
- zoozla 6y ago
  This is a really powerful comment. I am trying to create a sustainable income from this app so I can keep on doing what I love, and every marketing guru on the planet is trying to push me into charging as much as possible as early as possible. I have an intuitive resistance to that, but you put it in way better words than I could have. I'm not sure how to fix this and still make a living out of it yet, but I'm going to keep looking. Thanks for your thoughts!
zoozla 6y ago
It's part of it, but I only built the app after realizing the method (which is based on something called The Sedona Method) really worked for me. I just found it super tedious to do on paper and over time added more features that help to get into a mental state where emotional release is possible. I'm now building a business around the app and that path has multiple emotional pitfalls per day. I tried to do this a few times before and always succumbed to my fear, guilt and worthlessnes. This time, I'm using the app on a daily basis and snap out of my funk (usually) in a matter of minutes. So I'd say the app is helping me feel better which is allowing me to keep building it - not the other way around.
- mynegation 6y ago
  Eli, you are probably the first in the long line of Show HN's, product hunts, and indie hackers that I read every day that I read and wanted to scream "Shut up and take my money!". Seriously, if you think you are not ready to introduce paid plans, start with donation link. Or kickstarter. The challenging part with apps like these is that people expect quick fixes ("I will read that book, do that exercise and everything will fall in place"). No, it is a process, like coming to gym and lifting a dumbbell one time will not make you jacked. I think it is important to emphasize that. Few items of feedback (1) Add email - not necessarily your personal email - but something like info@wuju.app, twitter is not everyone's cup of tea (2) I think you mispelled "tedious" as "tedius" in at least one place. (3) you narration is very authentic and I definitely connected to it, but most people tend to connect to the monologue with more expression and intonation in it. If you transition to a serious business with it - consider hiring a female sound actor - no sexism here - but research shows that people of both sexes have a stronger response to female voices, there is a reason that all voice assistants speak with female voice by default.
  - zoozla 6y ago
    That is the best feedback I've gotten so far, thank you thank you thank you! I definitely am planning to make a serious business out of it. I started out with a coaching + app mix when the app was a lot more bare and didn't really work without me walking people through it. I'll get the email, marketing site and the rest of it in order, you're right, Twitter isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I am focused on buildign an audience there because my style of writing seems to work well in short bursts). I'm not going to hire a female actress to do the narration because I want my soul to be in the app. I might hire a speach coach though to get this to a higher level, so thanks for for pointing it out. I've actually gotten way better feedback on the narration given that I'm not a native English speaker and this is my first time recording my voice for anything. Again, thanks so much. I'm now going to use this motivation that you granted me to go get this thing in front of many more people!

by dawg- 6y ago

cabaalis 6y ago

Part of my job is analyzing quality metrics surrounding depression. Everyone is failing, and uncontrolled depression is an unseen pandemic. We are in rapid innovation phase.

jointpdf 6y ago
Quality metrics surrounding depression? Can you elaborate? Also, are you the right person to complain to about the quality of my depression? It is quite poor and I would like get a refund.
- cabaalis 6y ago
  "Quality metrics" is an industry term regarding hitting certain benchmarks of care in a provider's patient population to measure "quality" of care by a provider or group. Payers measure providers for various reasons using well-defined protocols. An example of a depression protocol is depression remission: (1) Was an index test performed in prior year to identify depression (2) Was a followup performed this year (3) Does the followup test indicate depression has gone into remission. There are various other measures for depression.
  - zoozla 6y ago
    The only thing I can currently measure in the app is the intensity of an emotional experience - before the process and after the process. I'm still compiling the stats, but I think the average reduction in intensity of the experience of e.g. apathy is about 40%. I really like the idea of incorporating a standard depression symptoms test into the app and then taking another test at a later stage to see the longer term change. It still won't be conclusive proof, but it would help.
dawg- 6y ago
I am frustrated that we feel the need to keep "innovating" when we already know how to fix depression. In no particular order: Physical activity, social participation, getting enough sunlight, and creative outlets. The problem is those things are hard. And downloading an app on your phone is easy. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?) it is still true that you reap what you sow. I'm afraid all this "innovation" around mental health is just sowing the seeds for more people spending more time sitting inside, alone, not moving, staring at screens, consuming.
- zoozla 6y ago
  You are absolutely right that these things are the true solution to not have depression. However, they don't really work when you are already in it though. It's like telling a drowning man to start practicing his strokes or someone falling out of a plane to invent a parachute. Depression is a self sustaining problem. The depression prevents you from seeking social activities, taking care of your body and mind and being creative, This obviously makes the depression worse. Paradoxically, forcing yourself to do any of these activities makes the depression worse as well due to the internal resistance to get better. We definitely do need innovation. We need something that works, is scalable, doesn't cost $1k per month in therapy fees and doesn't have any adverse side effects. My current best guess about the future in this space is a combination of microdosing and supportive apps like mine.

tachyonbeam 6y ago

Generally speaking, it's good to have goals, a purpose, and a creative outlet. Tangentially, I know that personally, something I struggle with, that has caused me frustration, is that I often feel like in my work life, I am forced to work on projects that I think are basically bullshit. I'm being asked to implement a feature that I believe is useless, or to work on a project that my intuition tells me will get axed later, have very little or no impact, or is based on terrible design decisions and just painful to work on. That leaves me feeling powerless and unmotivated, and has pushed me into a depression in the past. As a programmer, having a side project can be a nice way to get what you can't always get at work, which is a sense of self-determination. A sense of working on something you actually believe in, something you can actually take the time to design cleanly and properly. Side projects can be a much better creative outlet than work. I hope that I can eventually find a job where I get to work on something I truly, really believe in. That's been very difficult to find so far though.

phobosanomaly 6y ago

So many are just trying to sell you something. It's like if you went to visit your Psychiatrist and they tried to sell you a time-share on your way out of the office. People deserve to be compensated for their work, obviously, but this is a space where people are looking to escape from being sold something or manipulated in some way. If someone is building the app for themselves, it's based around actually helping and doesn't have some underlying agenda that it's trying to hide under the tablecloth. Like a walk through the forest, the trees aren't reaching for your wallet when you turn around. The trees are just there to do some light photosynthesis before lunch, and then maybe make some pinecones that afternoon.

zoozla 6y ago
This is a really powerful comment. I am trying to create a sustainable income from this app so I can keep on doing what I love, and every marketing guru on the planet is trying to push me into charging as much as possible as early as possible. I have an intuitive resistance to that, but you put it in way better words than I could have. I'm not sure how to fix this and still make a living out of it yet, but I'm going to keep looking. Thanks for your thoughts!

zoozla 6y ago

It's part of it, but I only built the app after realizing the method (which is based on something called The Sedona Method) really worked for me. I just found it super tedious to do on paper and over time added more features that help to get into a mental state where emotional release is possible. I'm now building a business around the app and that path has multiple emotional pitfalls per day. I tried to do this a few times before and always succumbed to my fear, guilt and worthlessnes. This time, I'm using the app on a daily basis and snap out of my funk (usually) in a matter of minutes. So I'd say the app is helping me feel better which is allowing me to keep building it - not the other way around.

mynegation 6y ago
Eli, you are probably the first in the long line of Show HN's, product hunts, and indie hackers that I read every day that I read and wanted to scream "Shut up and take my money!". Seriously, if you think you are not ready to introduce paid plans, start with donation link. Or kickstarter. The challenging part with apps like these is that people expect quick fixes ("I will read that book, do that exercise and everything will fall in place"). No, it is a process, like coming to gym and lifting a dumbbell one time will not make you jacked. I think it is important to emphasize that. Few items of feedback (1) Add email - not necessarily your personal email - but something like info@wuju.app, twitter is not everyone's cup of tea (2) I think you mispelled "tedious" as "tedius" in at least one place. (3) you narration is very authentic and I definitely connected to it, but most people tend to connect to the monologue with more expression and intonation in it. If you transition to a serious business with it - consider hiring a female sound actor - no sexism here - but research shows that people of both sexes have a stronger response to female voices, there is a reason that all voice assistants speak with female voice by default.
- zoozla 6y ago
  That is the best feedback I've gotten so far, thank you thank you thank you! I definitely am planning to make a serious business out of it. I started out with a coaching + app mix when the app was a lot more bare and didn't really work without me walking people through it. I'll get the email, marketing site and the rest of it in order, you're right, Twitter isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I am focused on buildign an audience there because my style of writing seems to work well in short bursts). I'm not going to hire a female actress to do the narration because I want my soul to be in the app. I might hire a speach coach though to get this to a higher level, so thanks for for pointing it out. I've actually gotten way better feedback on the narration given that I'm not a native English speaker and this is my first time recording my voice for anything. Again, thanks so much. I'm now going to use this motivation that you granted me to go get this thing in front of many more people!