5 ms·

A couple of negative points about commenting on HackersNews

2 points by feralimal 6y ago

* There's no info about what formatting is allowed - no style guide. * When you are newbie, you can only upvote. Some people can downvote though! I've been commenting here for a few months and still cannot downvote. There's no info about how and when you get the option to downvote. There's no info about whether there are other super-powers as well as downvoting. Eg, sometimes comments or posts that were on the front page disappear quickly! Is this on account of an uber-user downvoting? I've been told in comments that downvoting is only 'enabled' once you have enough upvotes. Ok, I understand you want to encourage high quality posts and comments. There is a problem with that methodology though. It basically mandates that you go along with the consensus opinion to maintain your 'privileges'. But, blow me if I've absolutely no interest in consensus opinion! Is a critical opinion really a problem? Perhaps I do present 'salty' opinions, but I believe them to be true, and I'm happy to defend them. I think that's the scientific method in action. But around here, it turns out I'm actually a 3rd class citizen. Boo! So, I would ask HN for 2 things. 1. Is there a link to the style guide? Could this not be made easily accessible? 2. What are the 'tiers' of user-hood, and what are the 'superpowers' and 'unlock' codes for each? Again, could this also not be made easily accessible?

mindcrime 6y ago
By and large, none of these things are really all that "negative". You're talking about nits at best. And I'd argue that HN is the way it is intentionally, based on the audience the site owners want (or wanted) to appeal to. That said, there is an unofficial guide that has been assembled, that documents most of the kinds of things you're asking about. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973
- feralimal 6y ago
  Thanks!
feralimal 6y ago
PS, I would encourage any others who share my frustration as the lack of clarity about the process on HN to comment. Or to set me straight about how I missed the links! Cheers.
gulato 6y ago
My 2 cents at 24 units of.. whatever it's called here. (i don't care) Internet points don't add value to my life. I don't come here for "salty opinions" I come here for polite, insightful, hopefully entertaining conversation. Endless "salty opinions" aren't any of those three things. You can disagree without being "salty" -- and this website owes you nothing. You have freedom! You can go to some other popular website where downvoting is the norm.
- feralimal 6y ago
  > Internet points don't add value to my life. Absolutely. I don't want points. But I'm collecting negative points whilst giving honest and authentic contributions. I'm being judged and found wanting. Why? I don't mind hearing or being deconstructed (or ignored for that matter). But why take one on what I have to say, when I'm being straightforward? I'm acting in good faith. It feels like I have to be part of the 'hive mind' or f* off like you suggest. But I like this site and what's discussed.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
mplanchard 6y ago
I generally see people on here aligning with the intent of the site (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) not being downvoted. Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently and politely, seem to do just fine for the most part. The downvote here is supposed to mean not that someone disagrees with you, but that you aren’t following the guidelines, seem to be arguing in poor faith, etc. There’s also a cap on the number of downvotes a comment can receive, so you can only get I think -4 points no matter how bad of a comment you make. You’ll also notice that upvotes for submissions only count for half the points as upvotes on comments. In general, the system is designed to promote reasoned, deeper discussion, and for the most part I think it does it well (or at least better than most online discussion forums). The only “superpower” is downvoting. It doesn’t take all that many points to achieve. My understanding is they want folks to be familiar with the site’s guidelines and standards before giving them power to downvote. Regarding the style guide, I don’t know of an official source, but if you go for markdown without links, you’ll generally be fine, and you can always edit your posts if needed.
- non-entity 6y ago
  > The downvote here is supposed to mean not that someone disagrees with you, but that you aren’t following the guidelines, seem to be arguing in poor faith, etc. Yeah you would think this, but there was an Ask HN thread maybe a month or two ago asking why people downvote and disagreement in opinion was a surprisingly popular justification.
  - mplanchard 6y ago
    Sure, people will often use it that way. I think this is one of the reasons they cap downvotes for a given comment, so the “pile-on” effect doesn’t hurt your overall point total too badly.
- mindcrime 6y ago
  Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently and politely, seem to do just fine for the most part. I've found that to be true for the most part. It's not quite the case though, that all opinions will be treated fairly even when presented intelligently and politely. In my own experience, I've found that certain comments will be downvoted more or less no matter what.
gus_massa 6y ago
The instruction for formatting is difficult to find, even if you know it exist https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc tl;dr: not too much You need 501 karma to downvote a comment. I think the threshold is a feature, not a bug. Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to donwvote any alternative. Technical threads are more safe. Sometime people get downvoted for being wrong, but I don't like it so I upvote gray comments (unless they are offensive or very wrong). Anyway, I use the downvote very seldom, perhaps only once per day. What do you want to downvote? The stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only 31 karma to flag. Also when a story gets much more comments that upvotes, it gets a penalty. The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags or the automatic penalty.
- brodouevencode 6y ago
  > Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to donwvote any alternative. This cannot be overstated. Things are weird now: so many folks immediately think you're the devil if you have a countering perspective. Of all things in the social space, this worries me the most.
- feralimal 6y ago
  Very useful - thanks! I don't want to downvote. I want to know why my comments get downvoted! How does one get that superpower? Because it absolutely seems that I bump into some sort of consensus thinking. I mean, I've been posting in the last months pretty regularly, I'm posting my genuine arguments and positions, that I have come to over years, and I can support. I think they are interesting ideas - or at least they are authentic. And yet 4 months in, I'm currently at 26 points, having scaled the heady heights of 35 points! Jeez, this seems to be a tough audience for people who I think should be open to interesting, unusual and perhaps challenging ideas! > Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to downvote any alternative. Believe it or not, I don't think I'm political. I think I have a philosophical position. I really don't care about left or right. My philosophical position is of a skeptical bent. But, yep, this is misinterpreted as being political. Cheers.
- feralimal 6y ago
yesenadam 6y ago
> could this also not be made easily accessible? Google anything you want to know. There are quite a few sites/blogs with info about HN. The HN site is lightweight, people like it that way. There is a guidelines page, which you should pay a lot more attention to (I looked at your comments). There's a lot of wisdom in those guidelines. Put more effort into writing good comments. Some of yours are good, but half are downvoted, and it's not hard to see why. Having trouble reaching 501 points is a problem of someone who arrived here yesterday. Focus, for now at least, on what you can give HN, not what you can get. Does your comment leave the page better than you found it? If not, delete it. (e.g. complaints about being downvoted never add to a page) I do that quite a lot! - write a comment, then when finished, see it adds little or nothing, so delete it and move on. It was enough to write it. Try to avoid the "I'm downvoted because I'm right" disease, which you seem to be developing a strong case of. Consider for a moment that that problem is you, not HN. Even after you've done that, if you focus on political comments, as you seem to do – particularly of the "All government is slavery" kind, to quote from one of your comments – you may still attract more downvotes than upvotes. I suspect there are far better sites for such discussions.
- feralimal 6y ago
  I like the lightweight element of the site. I'm not asking for anything except the rule sheet though. Can I say, you're a bit rude. I think you may disagree with my 'political' comments, but then put words in my mouth. I like meaningful engagement, and - yes I have my (reasoned) views and put them out there to be challenged and discussed. But I don't "know I'm right" - I actually like to be set straight when I'm wrong. Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion. You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if its not going along with the flow or something.
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    > Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion. This seems another example of the criticism-proving-you-right disease. I thought I gave a load of useful advice. > You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if its not going along with the flow or something. That's nothing like what I said, is it. Yes, everyone should "police" their own opinions, if you want to put it like that – for example, some comment triggers you and you write an angry response. After writing it, read it again with a cooler head and before posting it decide if it really adds to HN, or subtracts. I often find that just writing it is enough – I learnt something by writing it, or got my anger/resentment out of my system. (Maybe you think 100% of the comments you write are worth posting; for me it's far less.) I said nothing about a consensus or "going with the flow", and don't mean anything like that.
feralimal 6y ago
Answers from the thread with thanks: news guidelines here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html format doc here: https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc an unofficial guide here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 In summary: You need 501 karma to downvote a comment. Stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only 31 karma to flag. When a story gets much more comments than upvotes, it gets a penalty. The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags or the automatic penalty.

2 points by feralimal 6y ago

mindcrime 6y ago

By and large, none of these things are really all that "negative". You're talking about nits at best. And I'd argue that HN is the way it is intentionally, based on the audience the site owners want (or wanted) to appeal to. That said, there is an unofficial guide that has been assembled, that documents most of the kinds of things you're asking about. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973

feralimal 6y ago
Thanks!

feralimal 6y ago

PS, I would encourage any others who share my frustration as the lack of clarity about the process on HN to comment. Or to set me straight about how I missed the links! Cheers.

gulato 6y ago

My 2 cents at 24 units of.. whatever it's called here. (i don't care) Internet points don't add value to my life. I don't come here for "salty opinions" I come here for polite, insightful, hopefully entertaining conversation. Endless "salty opinions" aren't any of those three things. You can disagree without being "salty" -- and this website owes you nothing. You have freedom! You can go to some other popular website where downvoting is the norm.

feralimal 6y ago
> Internet points don't add value to my life. Absolutely. I don't want points. But I'm collecting negative points whilst giving honest and authentic contributions. I'm being judged and found wanting. Why? I don't mind hearing or being deconstructed (or ignored for that matter). But why take one on what I have to say, when I'm being straightforward? I'm acting in good faith. It feels like I have to be part of the 'hive mind' or f* off like you suggest. But I like this site and what's discussed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

mplanchard 6y ago

I generally see people on here aligning with the intent of the site (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) not being downvoted. Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently and politely, seem to do just fine for the most part. The downvote here is supposed to mean not that someone disagrees with you, but that you aren’t following the guidelines, seem to be arguing in poor faith, etc. There’s also a cap on the number of downvotes a comment can receive, so you can only get I think -4 points no matter how bad of a comment you make. You’ll also notice that upvotes for submissions only count for half the points as upvotes on comments. In general, the system is designed to promote reasoned, deeper discussion, and for the most part I think it does it well (or at least better than most online discussion forums). The only “superpower” is downvoting. It doesn’t take all that many points to achieve. My understanding is they want folks to be familiar with the site’s guidelines and standards before giving them power to downvote. Regarding the style guide, I don’t know of an official source, but if you go for markdown without links, you’ll generally be fine, and you can always edit your posts if needed.

non-entity 6y ago
> The downvote here is supposed to mean not that someone disagrees with you, but that you aren’t following the guidelines, seem to be arguing in poor faith, etc. Yeah you would think this, but there was an Ask HN thread maybe a month or two ago asking why people downvote and disagreement in opinion was a surprisingly popular justification.
- mplanchard 6y ago
  Sure, people will often use it that way. I think this is one of the reasons they cap downvotes for a given comment, so the “pile-on” effect doesn’t hurt your overall point total too badly.
mindcrime 6y ago
Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently and politely, seem to do just fine for the most part. I've found that to be true for the most part. It's not quite the case though, that all opinions will be treated fairly even when presented intelligently and politely. In my own experience, I've found that certain comments will be downvoted more or less no matter what.

gus_massa 6y ago

The instruction for formatting is difficult to find, even if you know it exist https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc tl;dr: not too much You need 501 karma to downvote a comment. I think the threshold is a feature, not a bug. Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to donwvote any alternative. Technical threads are more safe. Sometime people get downvoted for being wrong, but I don't like it so I upvote gray comments (unless they are offensive or very wrong). Anyway, I use the downvote very seldom, perhaps only once per day. What do you want to downvote? The stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only 31 karma to flag. Also when a story gets much more comments that upvotes, it gets a penalty. The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags or the automatic penalty.

brodouevencode 6y ago
> Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to donwvote any alternative. This cannot be overstated. Things are weird now: so many folks immediately think you're the devil if you have a countering perspective. Of all things in the social space, this worries me the most.
feralimal 6y ago
Very useful - thanks! I don't want to downvote. I want to know why my comments get downvoted! How does one get that superpower? Because it absolutely seems that I bump into some sort of consensus thinking. I mean, I've been posting in the last months pretty regularly, I'm posting my genuine arguments and positions, that I have come to over years, and I can support. I think they are interesting ideas - or at least they are authentic. And yet 4 months in, I'm currently at 26 points, having scaled the heady heights of 35 points! Jeez, this seems to be a tough audience for people who I think should be open to interesting, unusual and perhaps challenging ideas! > Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to downvote any alternative. Believe it or not, I don't think I'm political. I think I have a philosophical position. I really don't care about left or right. My philosophical position is of a skeptical bent. But, yep, this is misinterpreted as being political. Cheers.
feralimal 6y ago

yesenadam 6y ago

> could this also not be made easily accessible? Google anything you want to know. There are quite a few sites/blogs with info about HN. The HN site is lightweight, people like it that way. There is a guidelines page, which you should pay a lot more attention to (I looked at your comments). There's a lot of wisdom in those guidelines. Put more effort into writing good comments. Some of yours are good, but half are downvoted, and it's not hard to see why. Having trouble reaching 501 points is a problem of someone who arrived here yesterday. Focus, for now at least, on what you can give HN, not what you can get. Does your comment leave the page better than you found it? If not, delete it. (e.g. complaints about being downvoted never add to a page) I do that quite a lot! - write a comment, then when finished, see it adds little or nothing, so delete it and move on. It was enough to write it. Try to avoid the "I'm downvoted because I'm right" disease, which you seem to be developing a strong case of. Consider for a moment that that problem is you, not HN. Even after you've done that, if you focus on political comments, as you seem to do – particularly of the "All government is slavery" kind, to quote from one of your comments – you may still attract more downvotes than upvotes. I suspect there are far better sites for such discussions.

feralimal 6y ago
I like the lightweight element of the site. I'm not asking for anything except the rule sheet though. Can I say, you're a bit rude. I think you may disagree with my 'political' comments, but then put words in my mouth. I like meaningful engagement, and - yes I have my (reasoned) views and put them out there to be challenged and discussed. But I don't "know I'm right" - I actually like to be set straight when I'm wrong. Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion. You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if its not going along with the flow or something.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  > Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion. This seems another example of the criticism-proving-you-right disease. I thought I gave a load of useful advice. > You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if its not going along with the flow or something. That's nothing like what I said, is it. Yes, everyone should "police" their own opinions, if you want to put it like that – for example, some comment triggers you and you write an angry response. After writing it, read it again with a cooler head and before posting it decide if it really adds to HN, or subtracts. I often find that just writing it is enough – I learnt something by writing it, or got my anger/resentment out of my system. (Maybe you think 100% of the comments you write are worth posting; for me it's far less.) I said nothing about a consensus or "going with the flow", and don't mean anything like that.

feralimal 6y ago

Answers from the thread with thanks: news guidelines here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html format doc here: https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc an unofficial guide here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973 In summary: You need 501 karma to downvote a comment. Stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only 31 karma to flag. When a story gets much more comments than upvotes, it gets a penalty. The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags or the automatic penalty.