5 ms·

Epic games exclusives are not the kind of competing I want, and they're not a win/win/win. I'm happy to buy games on GOG or the Humble store for instance, but I

Epic games exclusives are not the kind of competing I want, and they're not a win/win/win. I'm happy to buy games on GOG or the Humble store for instance, but I will never in a million years install the privacy and security nightmare that is the Epic Game Store on a PC I own. Sure, steam is not perfect but they've not had issues on the scale of Epics software. I've played thousands of hours of Rocket League, but still out of principle had Psyonix refund me after the switch to Epic. Similarly, I had to ask for a refund for my kickstarter backing of Diabotical, a game I do wish to try one day. I understand why James took the money... but it's upsetting that the cost was exclusivity.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> I will never in a million years install the privacy and security nightmare that is the Epic Game Store on a PC I own. It turns out that in a surprising number of cases, you don’t have to. Control, Journey, and Beyond Two Souls (as of this writing, it launched with Denuvo) are all completely DRM Free and will run without EGS. You can download them via the open-source “Legendary” unofficial client, or even in a Virtual Machine if you feel so inclined. There are a tiny handful DRM-free Steam games but in my experience, it seems to be way more common on the Epic Game Store, particularly for AAA titles. I’m not sure if this was intentional of a happy accident, but it’s caused me to choose EGS for several titles recently. Mind, you still need to check before buying!
- falcolas 6y ago
  Control, as an example, is free of third party DRM on Steam. Ditto Journey and BTS. Compare Control with Doom Eternal's pages: https://store.steampowered.com/app/870780/Control_Ultimate_Edition/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/870780/Control_Ultimate_E... https://store.steampowered.com/app/782330/DOOM_Eternal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/782330/DOOM_Eternal/
  - gruez 6y ago
    >Control, as an example, is free of third party DRM on Steam This statement sounds like the "no sugar added" label that you see slapped on high sugar beverages. Yes, there's no added sugar (or DRM), but there's still sugar. It's completely different to no sugar (or no DRM), as is the case with egs (as in, you can launch the executable without egs running), according to https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Control https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Control
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    They are free of "third party DRM”, they are not free of first-party DRM, aka the DRM system integrated into Steam. If you buy Horizon: Zero Dawn from Steam, you won’t be able to actually start the game unless Steam is installed. However, if you buy the game from EGS, it work fine even if EGS is not installed. The EGS version is a completely standalone copy of the game that does not require any clients in order to run. This are a handful of Steam games like this as well. One example I purchased recently is Ori and the Will of the Wisps, which I downloaded in a VM before moving over to my main (Steamless) Windows install. It works fine. For whatever reason, however, this seems to work far more often with EGS games, and I really appreciate that! Edit: Useful reference https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16BjnaBO40vkt6kFVl0QWMWVh86UFnr-j_yWhQbASJ58/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16BjnaBO40vkt6kFVl0QW... ------ Edit2: By the way, I mentioned in my parent post that Journey was DRM Free on EGS. I have just learned that as of a recent update, saving is broken without EGS (although the game still launches, and you may not need saving given its two-hour runtime). I'm willing to chalk this up to a bug rather than anything malicious—and of course, the good thing about DRM-Free software is that if you've backed up your old copy, it will keep working, and no one can take it away from you. But, this type of thing is definitely a reason to still prefer GoG and itch.io where possible.
    - teawrecks 6y ago
      Steam used to be this way, I remember running skyrim without steam running. Would it change your mind if you knew EGS planned on going the DRM route in the near future (including for titles you just listed)?
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        Not really, I just want to buy games and play them without installing a client. Right now, these types of downloads are available from Epic. If Epic stops offering DRM Free games, I'll stop buying them. The nature of DRM-Free media is that once I've downloaded it, no one can take it away from me. I may miss out on future updates, but I always make purchasing decisions based on what's available today, and not what may be available in the future. (And I don't play online multiplayer.) The EGS version of Tetris Effect was DRM Free at launch, but DRM was added in an update. This means I can't recommend Tetris Effect to anyone who cares about clients or DRM—but on a personal level I don't particularly care, because I already got my copy! Separately, if e.g. GoG was the only PC game vendor, they probably would never have made DRM-Free games a core focus of their business, because why bother when you're the only game in town? And so, I'll always welcome new entrants into the market.
belltaco 6y ago
>but I will never in a million years install the privacy and security nightmare that is the Epic Game Store on a PC I own. What issues? Anyway, having to install a new launcher, as annoying as it is, is a far cry from throwing out your entire phone and all your apps, and buying a different phone (which has many of the same restrictions again). I don't understand why people keep comparing the iOS App Store to the Epic Game Store exclusives, they not remotely the same.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  At least with Fortnite they were slow to respond to reports of a data breach: https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2019/08/13/fortnite-data-breach-lands-epic-games-with-class-action/?amp https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2019/08/13/fortnite-...
- odshoifsdhfs 6y ago
  They had security breaches. They has some issues where people could use any email to register an account without verification, leaving thousands (millions?) without a way to register their own valid emails. They were caught scanning your pc for everything to 'provide a better experience' if you had some things installed. And if (want to think) they are 'fighting' for openness, 'buying' rights to games and taking them out of other stores. All of them can be easily googled so not going to spend time providing sources
  - zachm0 6y ago
    I tried googling, it definitely wasn't as easy as you made it seem. The closest thing I could find for the registering without verification claim was a Verge article [1] about people's Fortnite account being taken over after clicking a link that was sent to them. If you have a better source please do share. EDIT: Source has been found, apparently store didn't initially send a verification email so anyone could use any email[4], this has been fixed though. I could find no source for the claim that this affected millions or thousands of people. As for the claim that they were "scanning your pc for everything", that is just completely wrong. According a few articles [2][3] they were reading your steam friends list after getting permission from the user. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/16/18185398/fortnite-player-accounts-hack https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/16/18185398/fortnite-player-... [2]: https://www.slashgear.com/epic-games-store-isnt-spying-but-does-scan-steam-local-cache-17569962/ https://www.slashgear.com/epic-games-store-isnt-spying-but-d... [3]: https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-steam-data-reddit/ https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-steam-data-reddit/ [4]: https://twinfinite.net/2020/09/crysis-remastered-ray-tracing-trailer/ https://twinfinite.net/2020/09/crysis-remastered-ray-tracing...
fooey 6y ago
Epic "exclusives" are really just Epic purchasing customers. The publisher sells their fan base to Epic, and Epic gets a list of potential people they can sell their own crap to, and gets a big install base number they can leverage to convince more publishers to sell them more fan bases. #1 the publisher wins because they don't like risk in the first place, and free money is free money #2 epic wins because they build legitimacy and reach, and they sell more fortnite MTX to their burgeoning install base #3 the developer loses because their brand is tarnished and their potential for future titles is damaged due to lower sales numbers and shredding their fan base #4 the players lose because they lose choice and have their library locked in a 2nd rate predatory ecosystem
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  The players experience a first order loss but may achieve a long term second order gain as increased competition leads to better profits in game development, therefore encouraging more investment in games and potentially better games. I don't really agree that the developer loses. They need to get paid and presumably they are making rational decisions about which publishers to work with and transitively about their sales model.
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  There's zero evidence backing up any of your claims that developers or players "lose" because of these exclusive arrangements. Unlike the militant HN crowd, the average gamer doesn't give a crap if they have to install a client. Feelings are not facts.
mdoms 6y ago
Isn't it great that you have that choice! That's the marketplace at work. Now imagine if you developed the same privacy concerns about the Apple App Store.
madeofpalk 6y ago
> Epic games exclusives are not the kind of competing I want EGS represents the choice in the market, and the market can act on that. Developers have the choice to go on the store, and they have the choice to take exclusivity agreements, or they can choose to go on steam or to offer direct downloads. Customers and chose whether they want to purchase a game from EGS, or go elsewhere. "a product exists that I don't like" is not "bad competition". If you don't like Epic Game Store, then continue to not use it and go to a competing service/game.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

> I will never in a million years install the privacy and security nightmare that is the Epic Game Store on a PC I own. It turns out that in a surprising number of cases, you don’t have to. Control, Journey, and Beyond Two Souls (as of this writing, it launched with Denuvo) are all completely DRM Free and will run without EGS. You can download them via the open-source “Legendary” unofficial client, or even in a Virtual Machine if you feel so inclined. There are a tiny handful DRM-free Steam games but in my experience, it seems to be way more common on the Epic Game Store, particularly for AAA titles. I’m not sure if this was intentional of a happy accident, but it’s caused me to choose EGS for several titles recently. Mind, you still need to check before buying!

falcolas 6y ago
Control, as an example, is free of third party DRM on Steam. Ditto Journey and BTS. Compare Control with Doom Eternal's pages: https://store.steampowered.com/app/870780/Control_Ultimate_Edition/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/870780/Control_Ultimate_E... https://store.steampowered.com/app/782330/DOOM_Eternal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/782330/DOOM_Eternal/
- gruez 6y ago
  >Control, as an example, is free of third party DRM on Steam This statement sounds like the "no sugar added" label that you see slapped on high sugar beverages. Yes, there's no added sugar (or DRM), but there's still sugar. It's completely different to no sugar (or no DRM), as is the case with egs (as in, you can launch the executable without egs running), according to https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Control https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Control
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  They are free of "third party DRM”, they are not free of first-party DRM, aka the DRM system integrated into Steam. If you buy Horizon: Zero Dawn from Steam, you won’t be able to actually start the game unless Steam is installed. However, if you buy the game from EGS, it work fine even if EGS is not installed. The EGS version is a completely standalone copy of the game that does not require any clients in order to run. This are a handful of Steam games like this as well. One example I purchased recently is Ori and the Will of the Wisps, which I downloaded in a VM before moving over to my main (Steamless) Windows install. It works fine. For whatever reason, however, this seems to work far more often with EGS games, and I really appreciate that! Edit: Useful reference https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16BjnaBO40vkt6kFVl0QWMWVh86UFnr-j_yWhQbASJ58/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16BjnaBO40vkt6kFVl0QW... ------ Edit2: By the way, I mentioned in my parent post that Journey was DRM Free on EGS. I have just learned that as of a recent update, saving is broken without EGS (although the game still launches, and you may not need saving given its two-hour runtime). I'm willing to chalk this up to a bug rather than anything malicious—and of course, the good thing about DRM-Free software is that if you've backed up your old copy, it will keep working, and no one can take it away from you. But, this type of thing is definitely a reason to still prefer GoG and itch.io where possible.
  - teawrecks 6y ago
    Steam used to be this way, I remember running skyrim without steam running. Would it change your mind if you knew EGS planned on going the DRM route in the near future (including for titles you just listed)?
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Not really, I just want to buy games and play them without installing a client. Right now, these types of downloads are available from Epic. If Epic stops offering DRM Free games, I'll stop buying them. The nature of DRM-Free media is that once I've downloaded it, no one can take it away from me. I may miss out on future updates, but I always make purchasing decisions based on what's available today, and not what may be available in the future. (And I don't play online multiplayer.) The EGS version of Tetris Effect was DRM Free at launch, but DRM was added in an update. This means I can't recommend Tetris Effect to anyone who cares about clients or DRM—but on a personal level I don't particularly care, because I already got my copy! Separately, if e.g. GoG was the only PC game vendor, they probably would never have made DRM-Free games a core focus of their business, because why bother when you're the only game in town? And so, I'll always welcome new entrants into the market.

belltaco 6y ago

>but I will never in a million years install the privacy and security nightmare that is the Epic Game Store on a PC I own. What issues? Anyway, having to install a new launcher, as annoying as it is, is a far cry from throwing out your entire phone and all your apps, and buying a different phone (which has many of the same restrictions again). I don't understand why people keep comparing the iOS App Store to the Epic Game Store exclusives, they not remotely the same.

bobthepanda 6y ago
At least with Fortnite they were slow to respond to reports of a data breach: https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2019/08/13/fortnite-data-breach-lands-epic-games-with-class-action/?amp https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2019/08/13/fortnite-...
odshoifsdhfs 6y ago
They had security breaches. They has some issues where people could use any email to register an account without verification, leaving thousands (millions?) without a way to register their own valid emails. They were caught scanning your pc for everything to 'provide a better experience' if you had some things installed. And if (want to think) they are 'fighting' for openness, 'buying' rights to games and taking them out of other stores. All of them can be easily googled so not going to spend time providing sources
- zachm0 6y ago
  I tried googling, it definitely wasn't as easy as you made it seem. The closest thing I could find for the registering without verification claim was a Verge article [1] about people's Fortnite account being taken over after clicking a link that was sent to them. If you have a better source please do share. EDIT: Source has been found, apparently store didn't initially send a verification email so anyone could use any email[4], this has been fixed though. I could find no source for the claim that this affected millions or thousands of people. As for the claim that they were "scanning your pc for everything", that is just completely wrong. According a few articles [2][3] they were reading your steam friends list after getting permission from the user. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/16/18185398/fortnite-player-accounts-hack https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/16/18185398/fortnite-player-... [2]: https://www.slashgear.com/epic-games-store-isnt-spying-but-does-scan-steam-local-cache-17569962/ https://www.slashgear.com/epic-games-store-isnt-spying-but-d... [3]: https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-steam-data-reddit/ https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-steam-data-reddit/ [4]: https://twinfinite.net/2020/09/crysis-remastered-ray-tracing-trailer/ https://twinfinite.net/2020/09/crysis-remastered-ray-tracing...

fooey 6y ago

Epic "exclusives" are really just Epic purchasing customers. The publisher sells their fan base to Epic, and Epic gets a list of potential people they can sell their own crap to, and gets a big install base number they can leverage to convince more publishers to sell them more fan bases. #1 the publisher wins because they don't like risk in the first place, and free money is free money #2 epic wins because they build legitimacy and reach, and they sell more fortnite MTX to their burgeoning install base #3 the developer loses because their brand is tarnished and their potential for future titles is damaged due to lower sales numbers and shredding their fan base #4 the players lose because they lose choice and have their library locked in a 2nd rate predatory ecosystem

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
The players experience a first order loss but may achieve a long term second order gain as increased competition leads to better profits in game development, therefore encouraging more investment in games and potentially better games. I don't really agree that the developer loses. They need to get paid and presumably they are making rational decisions about which publishers to work with and transitively about their sales model.
tomnipotent 6y ago
There's zero evidence backing up any of your claims that developers or players "lose" because of these exclusive arrangements. Unlike the militant HN crowd, the average gamer doesn't give a crap if they have to install a client. Feelings are not facts.

mdoms 6y ago

Isn't it great that you have that choice! That's the marketplace at work. Now imagine if you developed the same privacy concerns about the Apple App Store.

madeofpalk 6y ago

> Epic games exclusives are not the kind of competing I want EGS represents the choice in the market, and the market can act on that. Developers have the choice to go on the store, and they have the choice to take exclusivity agreements, or they can choose to go on steam or to offer direct downloads. Customers and chose whether they want to purchase a game from EGS, or go elsewhere. "a product exists that I don't like" is not "bad competition". If you don't like Epic Game Store, then continue to not use it and go to a competing service/game.