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> That means you need to end...selling stuff in containers entirely. If we energy-cost-accounted for all externalities, then I wonder how returning the contain

> That means you need to end...selling stuff in containers entirely. If we energy-cost-accounted for all externalities, then I wonder how returning the containers to the factory to automatically sanitize and re-use compares to recycling. Land filling is not an option: say you're in a closed loop environment like on a generation ship trip to Proxima Centauri b, and the concept of a land fill as we know it is obscenely wasteful.

cnity 6y ago
What's most interesting to me about this comment is the use of an example of a closed loop environment, despite the fact that _we're already in a closed loop environment_. We just pretend otherwise with landfill and the convenience of throwing things into a bin.
- yourapostasy 6y ago
  Glad you saw that. I already treat us as living in a closed loop environment, but very few people share and act upon that sentiment with me, so I find it easier to illustrate by analogy. Generally speaking, our human organizational psychology is extremely vulnerable to the principal agent problem throughout the body of the organization when timelines and scales are larger than an individual can internalize. MEGO is the usual response I get when I speak with most people about timelines exceeding a human lifespan (their human lifespan to be specific), or resource quantities at industrial and global scales. Until we can solve the problem of shifting on the order of 3e8 metric tons of mass off-planet without ruinous side effects, we're really stuck on our cradle world, and should plan (including actively researching how to get off world at that scale) accordingly.
masklinn 6y ago
> If we energy-cost-accounted for all externalities, then I wonder how returning the containers to the factory to automatically sanitize and re-use compares to recycling. That would be interesting, but it's very difficult to price externalities, and the very same people who are against any form of recycling mandate are also against pricing externalities (just look at who killed Australia's carbon tax, and which party's blocking any sort of cap-and-trade or carbon tax in the US).

cnity 6y ago

What's most interesting to me about this comment is the use of an example of a closed loop environment, despite the fact that _we're already in a closed loop environment_. We just pretend otherwise with landfill and the convenience of throwing things into a bin.

yourapostasy 6y ago
Glad you saw that. I already treat us as living in a closed loop environment, but very few people share and act upon that sentiment with me, so I find it easier to illustrate by analogy. Generally speaking, our human organizational psychology is extremely vulnerable to the principal agent problem throughout the body of the organization when timelines and scales are larger than an individual can internalize. MEGO is the usual response I get when I speak with most people about timelines exceeding a human lifespan (their human lifespan to be specific), or resource quantities at industrial and global scales. Until we can solve the problem of shifting on the order of 3e8 metric tons of mass off-planet without ruinous side effects, we're really stuck on our cradle world, and should plan (including actively researching how to get off world at that scale) accordingly.

masklinn 6y ago

> If we energy-cost-accounted for all externalities, then I wonder how returning the containers to the factory to automatically sanitize and re-use compares to recycling. That would be interesting, but it's very difficult to price externalities, and the very same people who are against any form of recycling mandate are also against pricing externalities (just look at who killed Australia's carbon tax, and which party's blocking any sort of cap-and-trade or carbon tax in the US).