7 ms·

Some Debian developers tried to get funding to finish the Etch release, but it was met with a lot of hostility: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10

Some Debian developers tried to get funding to finish the Etch release, but it was met with a lot of hostility: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00260.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00260.htm... That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. E.g. the FreeBSD Foundation pays developers for specific projects that are important to the future of FreeBSD: https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-work/projects/ https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-work/projects/

rleigh 6y ago
It can be done, but culturally the projects are too different. There were valid reasons for the hostility. Bringing money into the equation completely changes the dynamics of an all-volunteer project, and splits the developers into the gilded minority and the plebs who slave away for free. Plenty of volunteer organisations have been torn apart by the resentment and infighting that can result. * Which developers are eligible for funding, and which are not? * The organisation is no longer flat; some people are effectively profiting off the backs of the majority * The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers" * Are "paid staff" even volunteers any more? The vast majority of Debian developers work full time on their day jobs, and contribute to Debian as a labour of love in their spare time, or as part of their work for situations where organisations sanction Debian work. I used to work 8 hours, and then come home and regularly work 4-8 hours on Debian. Every day for nearly a decade. Totally unsustainable, and I'm no longer an active contributor. But for people who are contributing that much, for free, you can see why there would be concerns over the effect of a paid class of contributor to the organisation as a whole. None of that is to say it can't work. FreeBSD is smaller, more tightly-focused, and has a culture of corporate contribution. Paying people to write specific features delivers results on a schedule. I donate to the FreeBSD foundation for that reason. The developer culture seems to be much more tolerant of this (though I'm not a FreeBSD insider, so don't know all the details). FreeBSD is vastly simpler to contribute to, so I can participate with vastly less commitment. Contributing a new port or an updated port or bugfix is simply a matter of attaching a patch to a bugzilla ticket. Maybe it's not so much of an issue because there's already a clear separation of core devs vs casual contributors. And that's OK.
- dcow 6y ago
  Do you think a bounty system would work? Leadership decides payouts for different contributions. Possibly exclude leadership from bounty access so that the core ethos is still volunteer driven. Everyone else has access to bounties so there’s no resentment. Contributions could range from code patches to release management & announcements.
  - rleigh 6y ago
    I'd like to say yes, but I really don't think that would work. It changes an organisation where everyone contributes for free to one where a subset of the developers are all chasing after bounties. "Equal access" doesn't mean no resentment. There's going to be competition due to the limited funding, and there will be losers. There will be questions and recrimination over how fair the selection process is (whether true or not). But getting the bounty also means a commitment to providing some deliverables within a defined period, compared to the commitment being imposed primarily due to one's dedication to the project. Overall, I can see it working for some organisations. But I don't see Debian as one of them.
  - asymptotically2 6y ago
    The Monero cryptocurrency's developers are all funded via the community via bounties. I think it works really well. https://ccs.getmonero.org/ https://ccs.getmonero.org/ (new system) https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks (old system)
- durandal1 6y ago
  > The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers" Is it a meritocracy if only developers who can afford to work for free participates?
  - rleigh 6y ago
    Err, yes. Yes it is. Debian is an all-volunteer organisation. Those are the terms for participation and they apply equally to all. If you want to be paid for writing free software, then get a job with a company that does that. Debian is not a company.

rleigh 6y ago

It can be done, but culturally the projects are too different. There were valid reasons for the hostility. Bringing money into the equation completely changes the dynamics of an all-volunteer project, and splits the developers into the gilded minority and the plebs who slave away for free. Plenty of volunteer organisations have been torn apart by the resentment and infighting that can result. * Which developers are eligible for funding, and which are not? * The organisation is no longer flat; some people are effectively profiting off the backs of the majority * The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers" * Are "paid staff" even volunteers any more? The vast majority of Debian developers work full time on their day jobs, and contribute to Debian as a labour of love in their spare time, or as part of their work for situations where organisations sanction Debian work. I used to work 8 hours, and then come home and regularly work 4-8 hours on Debian. Every day for nearly a decade. Totally unsustainable, and I'm no longer an active contributor. But for people who are contributing that much, for free, you can see why there would be concerns over the effect of a paid class of contributor to the organisation as a whole. None of that is to say it can't work. FreeBSD is smaller, more tightly-focused, and has a culture of corporate contribution. Paying people to write specific features delivers results on a schedule. I donate to the FreeBSD foundation for that reason. The developer culture seems to be much more tolerant of this (though I'm not a FreeBSD insider, so don't know all the details). FreeBSD is vastly simpler to contribute to, so I can participate with vastly less commitment. Contributing a new port or an updated port or bugfix is simply a matter of attaching a patch to a bugzilla ticket. Maybe it's not so much of an issue because there's already a clear separation of core devs vs casual contributors. And that's OK.

dcow 6y ago
Do you think a bounty system would work? Leadership decides payouts for different contributions. Possibly exclude leadership from bounty access so that the core ethos is still volunteer driven. Everyone else has access to bounties so there’s no resentment. Contributions could range from code patches to release management & announcements.
- rleigh 6y ago
  I'd like to say yes, but I really don't think that would work. It changes an organisation where everyone contributes for free to one where a subset of the developers are all chasing after bounties. "Equal access" doesn't mean no resentment. There's going to be competition due to the limited funding, and there will be losers. There will be questions and recrimination over how fair the selection process is (whether true or not). But getting the bounty also means a commitment to providing some deliverables within a defined period, compared to the commitment being imposed primarily due to one's dedication to the project. Overall, I can see it working for some organisations. But I don't see Debian as one of them.
- asymptotically2 6y ago
  The Monero cryptocurrency's developers are all funded via the community via bounties. I think it works really well. https://ccs.getmonero.org/ https://ccs.getmonero.org/ (new system) https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks (old system)
durandal1 6y ago
> The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers" Is it a meritocracy if only developers who can afford to work for free participates?
- rleigh 6y ago
  Err, yes. Yes it is. Debian is an all-volunteer organisation. Those are the terms for participation and they apply equally to all. If you want to be paid for writing free software, then get a job with a company that does that. Debian is not a company.