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I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much fami

I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much family values they have been married several times, but couldn't bother to show up. We are on good terms, and in spite of his having a "single mother" he survived to adulthood, and without the criminal record the author warns of as a consequence. This publisher is operated by a conservative think tank. I am not surprised that they claim that civic unrest following police executions is the result of "out of wedlock" parenting by the poor, but it is paternalistic, condescending, self-serving, personally insulting to myself, and most importantly, totally unsupported by any provided evidence. This is hacker news. What is a hacker if not someone who does what works because it's works, even when it's not conventional, and even when authority figures tell you not to because it's naughty? This article furnishes no evidence that being married forces poor people to be good parents, nor do all the downvotes in world.

apexalpha 6y ago
But if you (partly) raised him does that still make him "raised by single mother"? Because I think any male role model invested in a kid will do, it doesn't have to be a biological parent. In my country, despite all government intervention, the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  This is treacherous discussion. Broaching the idea that there's any biological basis for parenting, child development, etc. is pretty much verboten since it runs askew of idealism.
  - apexalpha 6y ago
    I'm sorry I don't think I fully understand your comment. Are you saying it's bad to point out that it's good to have both parents around?
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      I get the sense most progressives, at least in the US, would be uncomfortable with/hostile to someone saying: > the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not since it implies that there's something intrinsic/fundamental about men(and a nuclear family more generally) being needed for healthy child development honestly even mentioning statistics around a social issue is risky
      - apexalpha 6y ago
        I intentionally put quotes around successful because successful means different things to different people. But, yeah, the strongest indicator for whether you will grow up successful or not seems to be whether your father is in the picture growing up. I'm not saying it's causal. And I'm sure many grow up fine with just a mother, but it's very strongly correlated in my country.
      - rootusrootus 6y ago
        > most progressives You're casting a pretty wide net there. Data is data, feel free to present it. And if there is a demonstrable statistical correlation, great. People should still have the freedom to marry someone of the same gender. Single parents should still be allowed to stay single.
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        > People should still have the freedom to marry someone of the same gender. Single parents should still be allowed to stay single I never said anything contradicting that
      - mam2 6y ago
        > honestly even mentioning statistics around a social issue is risky That illustrates that in america, mentionning truth instead of ideology is risky.
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> This publisher is operated by a conservative think tank Ok so I'm glad we're engaging the article on the surface. > This article furnishes no evidence that being married forces poor people to be good parents I'm not sure that was ever said. What they're arguing is about how societal institutions like marriage have largely declined and it's happening along with other large changes in society: lack of trust, friends, etc. And clearly from what you've said, the legal distinctions of marriage are far less important than whether there's two adults in a family raising children.
- bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
  the provincialism and groupthink on HN is incredible
- elipsey 6y ago
  I agree that it's important to have stable responsible male role models. I object to the state preventing abandoned parents from getting divorced, and treating them with them various other forms of animus -- something that is advocated for by conservative think tanks like the one that payed for this article, and had negative consequences for people I care about.
motorcycleman9 6y ago
The sociological data regarding being raised by a single parent is out there. It is extremely clear that it correlates with a number of negative outcomes. You being offended by this doesn't change the statistical reality of the situation. https://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/ https://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences...

apexalpha 6y ago

But if you (partly) raised him does that still make him "raised by single mother"? Because I think any male role model invested in a kid will do, it doesn't have to be a biological parent. In my country, despite all government intervention, the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
This is treacherous discussion. Broaching the idea that there's any biological basis for parenting, child development, etc. is pretty much verboten since it runs askew of idealism.
- apexalpha 6y ago
  I'm sorry I don't think I fully understand your comment. Are you saying it's bad to point out that it's good to have both parents around?
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    I get the sense most progressives, at least in the US, would be uncomfortable with/hostile to someone saying: > the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not since it implies that there's something intrinsic/fundamental about men(and a nuclear family more generally) being needed for healthy child development honestly even mentioning statistics around a social issue is risky
    - apexalpha 6y ago
      I intentionally put quotes around successful because successful means different things to different people. But, yeah, the strongest indicator for whether you will grow up successful or not seems to be whether your father is in the picture growing up. I'm not saying it's causal. And I'm sure many grow up fine with just a mother, but it's very strongly correlated in my country.
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      > most progressives You're casting a pretty wide net there. Data is data, feel free to present it. And if there is a demonstrable statistical correlation, great. People should still have the freedom to marry someone of the same gender. Single parents should still be allowed to stay single.
      - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        > People should still have the freedom to marry someone of the same gender. Single parents should still be allowed to stay single I never said anything contradicting that
    - mam2 6y ago
      > honestly even mentioning statistics around a social issue is risky That illustrates that in america, mentionning truth instead of ideology is risky.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

> This publisher is operated by a conservative think tank Ok so I'm glad we're engaging the article on the surface. > This article furnishes no evidence that being married forces poor people to be good parents I'm not sure that was ever said. What they're arguing is about how societal institutions like marriage have largely declined and it's happening along with other large changes in society: lack of trust, friends, etc. And clearly from what you've said, the legal distinctions of marriage are far less important than whether there's two adults in a family raising children.

bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
the provincialism and groupthink on HN is incredible
elipsey 6y ago
I agree that it's important to have stable responsible male role models. I object to the state preventing abandoned parents from getting divorced, and treating them with them various other forms of animus -- something that is advocated for by conservative think tanks like the one that payed for this article, and had negative consequences for people I care about.

motorcycleman9 6y ago

The sociological data regarding being raised by a single parent is out there. It is extremely clear that it correlates with a number of negative outcomes. You being offended by this doesn't change the statistical reality of the situation. https://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/ https://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences...