4 ms·

Authoritarian dictatorships are bad for many reasons. Ineffeciency when compared with more collaborative decision making processes is often not one of them. No

by hpoe 6y ago

Authoritarian dictatorships are bad for many reasons. Ineffeciency when compared with more collaborative decision making processes is often not one of them. No need to go through a comitte or build consensus when there is only one person that needs to make a decision. On the other hand that often means the person making the decision doesn't need to consider the opinions of others when making decisions. EDIT To clarify my comment I didn't say that dictatorships are better at making good decisions or result in a more efficient society simply that they are more effectient at making a decision. Whether they make good or bad decisions is much more dependent on the leader. It is a common pattern in the world the more constraints on a position the less autonomy an individual has the less impact they can have either for good or bad. Probably is related to the fine line between idiocy and genius.

greesil 6y ago
You can still have a powerful enough state to enforce laws and not be a dictatorship.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  The question is for how long. Many states have had a tendency to grow over time.
  - greesil 6y ago
    Nothing lasts forever, and not everything is a slippery slope. Historical context is also important. For example, some people have this notion that the Roman Republic was somehow "good" and the empire was "bad" solely because the Senate had power in the Republic, and voting = good. But in actuality it was a pretty messed up system of government because only Romans (literally people in that city) got a vote while the rest of the Italian peninsula got no say. And yes they fought a war about this and the "good" side lost. Voting was heavily weighted towards the upper classes, too. The empire wasn't all bread and circuses, but it did scale better, which had some pros and cons too :). But for your average inhabitant of the Italian peninsula you had no more or less say in how either government ran.
- watwut 6y ago
  Dictatorships can be quite a mess when it comes to enforcing laws unrelated to keeping power. These laws tend to turn onto soft of weapon to be used or not depending on whether you want harass someone or not. This happened in both Nazi system and Communist system. Both were high corruption a lot of petty crime normalized society (and a lot of other petty crime severely punished depending who done it and what was done).
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I think there’s a reasonable argument that street-level drug possession crimes during the “War on Drugs” had similar properties/effects.
eru 6y ago
I am not so sure about that in the absolute. In eg a 'chaotic' market system, you can just go and buy a yacht. Very quick, very efficient. If you have an authoritarian dictatorship like eg Stalin's Soviet Union, good luck getting your yacht quickly. Even the most authoritarian dictator can not make all decisions on their own. There will always be delegation.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  My understanding of the mechanism for getting yachts quickly under Stalin is that if you gave someone a large pile of money, that was clearly bribery, Взятка. If you gave someone a large pile of money and a few bottles of vodka, then it was just a tip, merely Brassica oleracea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24176587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24176587
  - eru 6y ago
    A yacht was probably a bad example. A better example might have been to get an extension to your factory or a new machine. Something clearly more of a reasonable business investment than a yacht. If you got Stalin's attention, you might have been able to get it right away (or go to the Gulag right away..) But that's a very special case, and in general dictatorships don't lack for bureaucracy. For a more benign version, look at getting anything done in the military or a very big and very top-down company where in theory the CEO reigns supreme.
XMPPwocky 6y ago
Perhaps - though notice that other systems have the same, or greater, simplicity - for example, when making a decision, choose randomly, or choose the option which sorts first alphabetically, or... When you don't have the constraint of making good decisions, or popular decisions, you can make decisions very efficiently!
tessierashpool 6y ago
> Authoritarian dictatorships are bad for many reasons. Ineffeciency when compared with more collaborative decision making processes is often not one of them. this is one of those things which many people believe but which isn't actually true. authoritarian dictatorships are very often total chaotic shitshows. the old line about Mussolini making the trains run on time is a great example. Mussolini used propaganda to claim that he made the trains run on time, and he did drive a few improvements to high-profile train lines in Northern Italy that were used mostly by elites and tourists, but trains in Mussolini's Italy were not efficient, not well-maintained (and therefore not safe), and they didn't run on time. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-15/stop-saying-mussolini-made-the-trains-run-on-time https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-15/stop-sayi... there's even an academic term for it: "the myth of fascist efficiency." Hitler's regime was also pure chaos, and he was largely regarded as a clown for most of his political career. authoritarian dictatorships lack legitimacy, so they're run by people who don't care if they're perceived as legitimate or not, which basically means fanatics and grifters. fanatics are too disconnected from reality to be highly effective, and grifters have a vested interest in chaos, since it makes their grift harder to detect.
- thotsBgone 6y ago
  Have you considered that Mussolini didn't care about the trains which weren't high-profile trains for elites? The person you're responding to said dictators do what they want efficiently, but don't care about what others want. Was Mussolini even trying to genuinely improve the lower class trains?
  - bonzini 6y ago
    In Italy to this day the line about trains running on time is spoken with reference to lower class trains. So no matter what the fascist regime wanted to improve, the propaganda was about _all_ trains.
    - thotsBgone 6y ago
watwut 6y ago
> I didn't say that dictatorships are better at making good decisions or result in a more efficient society simply that they are more effectient at making a decision. I think that one comes with asterisks too. The cultures in dictatorship are often pretty good at avoiding decisions at all cost. The price can be high for making decision someone in power does not like, better to do nothing or appear to have no opinions. Moreover, you don't want to appear to be making decisions, so that you don't look like threat for people who could be jealous and destroy you. Communist system was largely characterized by passivity. Even if the dictator himself can make decision at whim, the structures around him tend to insulate him from the rest of world. Oftentimes simply to protect this or that real world interest. Which means they end up not making decisions.

by hpoe 6y ago

greesil 6y ago

You can still have a powerful enough state to enforce laws and not be a dictatorship.

CameronNemo 6y ago
The question is for how long. Many states have had a tendency to grow over time.
- greesil 6y ago
  Nothing lasts forever, and not everything is a slippery slope. Historical context is also important. For example, some people have this notion that the Roman Republic was somehow "good" and the empire was "bad" solely because the Senate had power in the Republic, and voting = good. But in actuality it was a pretty messed up system of government because only Romans (literally people in that city) got a vote while the rest of the Italian peninsula got no say. And yes they fought a war about this and the "good" side lost. Voting was heavily weighted towards the upper classes, too. The empire wasn't all bread and circuses, but it did scale better, which had some pros and cons too :). But for your average inhabitant of the Italian peninsula you had no more or less say in how either government ran.
watwut 6y ago
Dictatorships can be quite a mess when it comes to enforcing laws unrelated to keeping power. These laws tend to turn onto soft of weapon to be used or not depending on whether you want harass someone or not. This happened in both Nazi system and Communist system. Both were high corruption a lot of petty crime normalized society (and a lot of other petty crime severely punished depending who done it and what was done).
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I think there’s a reasonable argument that street-level drug possession crimes during the “War on Drugs” had similar properties/effects.

eru 6y ago

I am not so sure about that in the absolute. In eg a 'chaotic' market system, you can just go and buy a yacht. Very quick, very efficient. If you have an authoritarian dictatorship like eg Stalin's Soviet Union, good luck getting your yacht quickly. Even the most authoritarian dictator can not make all decisions on their own. There will always be delegation.

082349872349872 6y ago
My understanding of the mechanism for getting yachts quickly under Stalin is that if you gave someone a large pile of money, that was clearly bribery, Взятка. If you gave someone a large pile of money and a few bottles of vodka, then it was just a tip, merely Brassica oleracea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24176587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24176587
- eru 6y ago
  A yacht was probably a bad example. A better example might have been to get an extension to your factory or a new machine. Something clearly more of a reasonable business investment than a yacht. If you got Stalin's attention, you might have been able to get it right away (or go to the Gulag right away..) But that's a very special case, and in general dictatorships don't lack for bureaucracy. For a more benign version, look at getting anything done in the military or a very big and very top-down company where in theory the CEO reigns supreme.

XMPPwocky 6y ago

Perhaps - though notice that other systems have the same, or greater, simplicity - for example, when making a decision, choose randomly, or choose the option which sorts first alphabetically, or... When you don't have the constraint of making good decisions, or popular decisions, you can make decisions very efficiently!

tessierashpool 6y ago

> Authoritarian dictatorships are bad for many reasons. Ineffeciency when compared with more collaborative decision making processes is often not one of them. this is one of those things which many people believe but which isn't actually true. authoritarian dictatorships are very often total chaotic shitshows. the old line about Mussolini making the trains run on time is a great example. Mussolini used propaganda to claim that he made the trains run on time, and he did drive a few improvements to high-profile train lines in Northern Italy that were used mostly by elites and tourists, but trains in Mussolini's Italy were not efficient, not well-maintained (and therefore not safe), and they didn't run on time. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-15/stop-saying-mussolini-made-the-trains-run-on-time https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-15/stop-sayi... there's even an academic term for it: "the myth of fascist efficiency." Hitler's regime was also pure chaos, and he was largely regarded as a clown for most of his political career. authoritarian dictatorships lack legitimacy, so they're run by people who don't care if they're perceived as legitimate or not, which basically means fanatics and grifters. fanatics are too disconnected from reality to be highly effective, and grifters have a vested interest in chaos, since it makes their grift harder to detect.

thotsBgone 6y ago
Have you considered that Mussolini didn't care about the trains which weren't high-profile trains for elites? The person you're responding to said dictators do what they want efficiently, but don't care about what others want. Was Mussolini even trying to genuinely improve the lower class trains?
- bonzini 6y ago
  In Italy to this day the line about trains running on time is spoken with reference to lower class trains. So no matter what the fascist regime wanted to improve, the propaganda was about _all_ trains.
  - thotsBgone 6y ago

watwut 6y ago

> I didn't say that dictatorships are better at making good decisions or result in a more efficient society simply that they are more effectient at making a decision. I think that one comes with asterisks too. The cultures in dictatorship are often pretty good at avoiding decisions at all cost. The price can be high for making decision someone in power does not like, better to do nothing or appear to have no opinions. Moreover, you don't want to appear to be making decisions, so that you don't look like threat for people who could be jealous and destroy you. Communist system was largely characterized by passivity. Even if the dictator himself can make decision at whim, the structures around him tend to insulate him from the rest of world. Oftentimes simply to protect this or that real world interest. Which means they end up not making decisions.