6 ms·

Or that Silicon Valley has no intrinsic advantage, and that they no longer have to factor it in where they are physically situated. Denver probably came out on

by bhupy 6y ago

Or that Silicon Valley has no intrinsic advantage, and that they no longer have to factor it in where they are physically situated. Denver probably came out on top because they think it affords a better quality of life for their employees and possibly more favorable tax regime.

wenc 6y ago
In one of Paul Graham's early essays [1], he talks about cities and ambition, and how each city sends a message to its inhabitants by virtue of the cluster of people who live there or aspire to be there (and have ended up there). I'm just wondering: what is Denver's message? Is it similar to Utah's where a slew of successful software companies got started? [2] Or has the city's message become unimportant in the era of remote work? I ask because it is often the case in history that great work is done in places that are the least comfortable. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Slopes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Slopes
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >I'm just wondering: what is Denver's message "I made my money, screw you" It's like the Florida or Vermont of the west only it's SV types who cash out and move there to raise kids or retire instead of the Wall St crowd.
  - malandrew 6y ago
    A lot of us aren't against taxes. We're against unreasonable levels of taxation and governance that squanders the taxes it does collect. California is the taxation equivalent of a loan shark. I now live in a state where I pay lower taxes and that provides more and better services than California. In fact, I can't think of a single thing California does better. I'm happy to pay my taxes here as this state's government does a much better job with the tax revenue they do collect. Sadly, as more Californians come to my state, they are supporting a lot of the same bad policy decisions that were well-intentioned but ultimately ended up becoming problematic in California.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      I didn't say anything about taxes and FWIW I agree with you. I meant it more of a "and now I'm coming here to raise your cost of living and tell you how to do things" sort of way. Kinda funny (in a sad sort of way) that in a thread about California people assume that "I've made my money, screw you" is about dodging taxes because that implies things about where the Overton window is in CA and is illustrative about why people might not like a bunch of Californians with enough money to matter (the last part being key) showing up over a couple decades.
    - 205guy 6y ago
      We understand, and it's clearly about politics. After all, taxation levels and government spending are nothing if not political. And that's fine, everyone is free to move around and find the place that works for them given their preferences and constraints. Everyone is better off if they find a place where they are happy. However, you can't deny or bemoan the freedom of others to do the same as you did, and to be political in the same way.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Great essay. I would say the game has certainly changed quite a bit with regards to remote work. I still don't feel the same energy working remote as I do in a room filled with people passionate about solving an exciting problem (i.e. a traditional startup). I think remote favors building "bazaar-type" software but not "cathedral-type" software or technology. We're currently in a big state of flux. The character of many cities is shifting. Many folks are betting that NYC will not recover from this remote-working trend and economic downturn, for example. Are the skeptics right, or is this a short-term bump in the road? Millions are moving from certain states and cities right now. How will this migration shape the character of destination cities like Denver? I'd say that's the more important question to speculate on rather than look back at what Denver has been in the past. I do think when you move to a place, it shapes you and you in turn shape it. It's a give and a take.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  Colorado in general has a ton of defense contractors. It's probably easier to find talent that has the necessary clearances and experience working with government agencies there versus in the bay.
ashconnor 6y ago
Anyone know why Colorado comes out over other states on those terms?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- monocasa 6y ago
  300 days of sun still, but a government strangled by a libertarian amendment to the state constitution that keeps us from being able to continue owning our roads? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Bill_of_Rights Peter Thiel is the guy that's so libertarian he wrote about how extending the franchise to women was a mistake. > …I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible… The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of "capitalist democracy" into an oxymoron. So I can see how that would appeal to him.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Taxpayers don’t own public roads, they rent them.
    - monocasa 6y ago
      And now we're renting them to both the government and Goldman Sachs, on a fifty year deal that Goldman Sachs turned a profit on after five years.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        And you want to give the geniuses who signed that deal even more money to spend?
        6y ago
CobrastanJorji 6y ago
Those are excellent reasons to move to another area. I think that relocating to other areas makes fantastic sense for lots of companies, Palantir included. My point, though, was that Palantir went out of their way to rail against the values and culture of Silicon Valley in their S-1. Repeatedly. These are all quotes from their S-1: > Our company was founded in Silicon Valley. But we seem to share fewer and fewer of the technology sector’s values and commitments. > Our roots in the intelligence community and defense sector introduced us to unique demands that many companies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere did not address: security, stability, and transparency > Palantir was founded on the premise that the most critical challenges cannot be solved from the comforts of Silicon Valley. This all makes more sense now that we know they were planning to move shortly, but it still struck me as weird and political. It read to me like "Remember, US government, we don't get wishy washy about using technology for military purposes like some of those other, differently-valued companies."
- gumby 6y ago
  > Our company was founded in Silicon Valley. But we seem to share fewer and fewer of the technology sector’s values and commitments. They didn’t have to go all the way to denver: just leave the valley for San Francisco Which is full of companies that share palantir’s philosophy of never making a profit.
- deevolution 6y ago
  Colorado is home to Lockheed Martin, one of the largest US defense contractors. Sounds like a solid culture fit for Palantir.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Lockheed Martin was based in Bethesda, MD last time I checked.
    - deleted 6y ago
gnicholas 6y ago
The personal income tax rate in CO is 4.63%, and in CA it tops out over 13%. The executives who are going to be selling stock in the next couple years will save nearly 10% in taxes if they relocate to CO. The CA FTB will likely go after some of them, on the grounds that they "earned" the stock/options while living in CA. In my prior life as a tax lawyer, I saw the FTB get beaten on this, but they probably still pursue the cases because there's so much money at stake.
- codezero 6y ago
  I know someone who knows someone who had a big exit recently and he said he moved and because of the tax situation, he's unlikely to even visit California for a few years, is there anything about the law that protects someone if they never return to the state, or is that bs? Good chance they don't want to come back for other reasons I guess!
  - gnicholas 6y ago
    It wouldn't matter if he came back to visit. It's more important that he change his driver's license, voter registration, move his family, bring his pets, not own real estate here, etc. The state's theory (that I recall) doesn't relate to future visits to CA — it's all about what happened in the past. BTW, I'm happy to make a referral to anyone who ends up targeted by the FTB on this issue. My former colleague, who is still a tax lawyer, nailed the FTB in court when they went after one of his clients on this.
    - codezero 6y ago
      Thanks for the answer, and the referral offer - I doubt my SV lottery tickets will ever win, and I'm staying in CA anyways, but maybe a friend might need help one day.
  - nostrademons 6y ago
    "Residency" is based on what fraction of your time you spend in the state. It's easier to make a case that you're not a resident if you can say "Wait a minute, I haven't even set foot in the state of California in the last 2 years!" It's not that it's a hard & fast rule or loophole, it's that the law is one of those things that includes some discretion & wiggle-room, and you're less likely to be on the wrong side of the FTB & court's interpretation of it if there are facts you can point to that clearly suggest "not a resident".

by bhupy 6y ago

wenc 6y ago

In one of Paul Graham's early essays [1], he talks about cities and ambition, and how each city sends a message to its inhabitants by virtue of the cluster of people who live there or aspire to be there (and have ended up there). I'm just wondering: what is Denver's message? Is it similar to Utah's where a slew of successful software companies got started? [2] Or has the city's message become unimportant in the era of remote work? I ask because it is often the case in history that great work is done in places that are the least comfortable. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Slopes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Slopes

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>I'm just wondering: what is Denver's message "I made my money, screw you" It's like the Florida or Vermont of the west only it's SV types who cash out and move there to raise kids or retire instead of the Wall St crowd.
- malandrew 6y ago
  A lot of us aren't against taxes. We're against unreasonable levels of taxation and governance that squanders the taxes it does collect. California is the taxation equivalent of a loan shark. I now live in a state where I pay lower taxes and that provides more and better services than California. In fact, I can't think of a single thing California does better. I'm happy to pay my taxes here as this state's government does a much better job with the tax revenue they do collect. Sadly, as more Californians come to my state, they are supporting a lot of the same bad policy decisions that were well-intentioned but ultimately ended up becoming problematic in California.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I didn't say anything about taxes and FWIW I agree with you. I meant it more of a "and now I'm coming here to raise your cost of living and tell you how to do things" sort of way. Kinda funny (in a sad sort of way) that in a thread about California people assume that "I've made my money, screw you" is about dodging taxes because that implies things about where the Overton window is in CA and is illustrative about why people might not like a bunch of Californians with enough money to matter (the last part being key) showing up over a couple decades.
  - 205guy 6y ago
    We understand, and it's clearly about politics. After all, taxation levels and government spending are nothing if not political. And that's fine, everyone is free to move around and find the place that works for them given their preferences and constraints. Everyone is better off if they find a place where they are happy. However, you can't deny or bemoan the freedom of others to do the same as you did, and to be political in the same way.
chrisco255 6y ago
Great essay. I would say the game has certainly changed quite a bit with regards to remote work. I still don't feel the same energy working remote as I do in a room filled with people passionate about solving an exciting problem (i.e. a traditional startup). I think remote favors building "bazaar-type" software but not "cathedral-type" software or technology. We're currently in a big state of flux. The character of many cities is shifting. Many folks are betting that NYC will not recover from this remote-working trend and economic downturn, for example. Are the skeptics right, or is this a short-term bump in the road? Millions are moving from certain states and cities right now. How will this migration shape the character of destination cities like Denver? I'd say that's the more important question to speculate on rather than look back at what Denver has been in the past. I do think when you move to a place, it shapes you and you in turn shape it. It's a give and a take.
vikramkr 6y ago
Colorado in general has a ton of defense contractors. It's probably easier to find talent that has the necessary clearances and experience working with government agencies there versus in the bay.

ashconnor 6y ago

Anyone know why Colorado comes out over other states on those terms?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
monocasa 6y ago
300 days of sun still, but a government strangled by a libertarian amendment to the state constitution that keeps us from being able to continue owning our roads? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxpayer_Bill_of_Rights Peter Thiel is the guy that's so libertarian he wrote about how extending the franchise to women was a mistake. > …I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible… The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of "capitalist democracy" into an oxymoron. So I can see how that would appeal to him.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Taxpayers don’t own public roads, they rent them.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    And now we're renting them to both the government and Goldman Sachs, on a fifty year deal that Goldman Sachs turned a profit on after five years.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      And you want to give the geniuses who signed that deal even more money to spend?
      - 6y ago

CobrastanJorji 6y ago

Those are excellent reasons to move to another area. I think that relocating to other areas makes fantastic sense for lots of companies, Palantir included. My point, though, was that Palantir went out of their way to rail against the values and culture of Silicon Valley in their S-1. Repeatedly. These are all quotes from their S-1: > Our company was founded in Silicon Valley. But we seem to share fewer and fewer of the technology sector’s values and commitments. > Our roots in the intelligence community and defense sector introduced us to unique demands that many companies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere did not address: security, stability, and transparency > Palantir was founded on the premise that the most critical challenges cannot be solved from the comforts of Silicon Valley. This all makes more sense now that we know they were planning to move shortly, but it still struck me as weird and political. It read to me like "Remember, US government, we don't get wishy washy about using technology for military purposes like some of those other, differently-valued companies."

gumby 6y ago
> Our company was founded in Silicon Valley. But we seem to share fewer and fewer of the technology sector’s values and commitments. They didn’t have to go all the way to denver: just leave the valley for San Francisco Which is full of companies that share palantir’s philosophy of never making a profit.
deevolution 6y ago
Colorado is home to Lockheed Martin, one of the largest US defense contractors. Sounds like a solid culture fit for Palantir.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- monocasa 6y ago
  Lockheed Martin was based in Bethesda, MD last time I checked.
  - deleted 6y ago

gnicholas 6y ago

The personal income tax rate in CO is 4.63%, and in CA it tops out over 13%. The executives who are going to be selling stock in the next couple years will save nearly 10% in taxes if they relocate to CO. The CA FTB will likely go after some of them, on the grounds that they "earned" the stock/options while living in CA. In my prior life as a tax lawyer, I saw the FTB get beaten on this, but they probably still pursue the cases because there's so much money at stake.

codezero 6y ago
I know someone who knows someone who had a big exit recently and he said he moved and because of the tax situation, he's unlikely to even visit California for a few years, is there anything about the law that protects someone if they never return to the state, or is that bs? Good chance they don't want to come back for other reasons I guess!
- gnicholas 6y ago
  It wouldn't matter if he came back to visit. It's more important that he change his driver's license, voter registration, move his family, bring his pets, not own real estate here, etc. The state's theory (that I recall) doesn't relate to future visits to CA — it's all about what happened in the past. BTW, I'm happy to make a referral to anyone who ends up targeted by the FTB on this issue. My former colleague, who is still a tax lawyer, nailed the FTB in court when they went after one of his clients on this.
  - codezero 6y ago
    Thanks for the answer, and the referral offer - I doubt my SV lottery tickets will ever win, and I'm staying in CA anyways, but maybe a friend might need help one day.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  "Residency" is based on what fraction of your time you spend in the state. It's easier to make a case that you're not a resident if you can say "Wait a minute, I haven't even set foot in the state of California in the last 2 years!" It's not that it's a hard & fast rule or loophole, it's that the law is one of those things that includes some discretion & wiggle-room, and you're less likely to be on the wrong side of the FTB & court's interpretation of it if there are facts you can point to that clearly suggest "not a resident".