5 ms·

It strongly seems to me that the British establishment is incredibly pissed at Assange for the trouble he caused by holing up in the embassy, and is therefore m

It strongly seems to me that the British establishment is incredibly pissed at Assange for the trouble he caused by holing up in the embassy, and is therefore making life as difficult for him as possible.

me_me_me 6y ago
He made us waste so much money, lets waste even more money. If that were the reason for this whole thing than its kindergartner level of spite.
- duncan_bayne 6y ago
  ... and? I've seen similar, in all walks of life. Politicians and civil servants are by no means immune to pettiness. Especially when setting an example might spare them work and money in the future.
  - mothsonasloth 6y ago
    Civil servants in the UK are renowned for being inherently lazy, incompetent and devious. Its no wonder when you have to interact with politicians on a day to day basis that the cultures should mirror each other. I would much prefer Microsoft Civil Servant sp4 or an IBM Civil Servant AI powered by Big Blue.
    - BusTrainBus 6y ago
      “Civil servants in the UK are renowned for being inherently lazy, incompetent and devious.” Depressing to see such low-quality nonsense on HackerNews.
      - mothsonasloth 6y ago
        Likewise with your comment mate https://www.clivebates.com/documents/lazycivilservant.pdf https://www.clivebates.com/documents/lazycivilservant.pdf
        CraigJPerry 6y ago
        I’m not sure that an amusing leaflet, ostensibly about civil servants but equally humorous to anyone in a large private enterprise, refutes the parent’s point.
      - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
        there are several brilliant documentaries[⁰][¹] about the inner political circles in Britain which make exactly the point GP is alluding to: [⁰] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thick_of_It https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thick_of_It [¹] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      Civil servants are not "known" for anything. The civil service is a lumbering giant but you can't characterise it in such terms. You can try but you'd need to drive to a castle to get your eyes tested first
    - bzb5 6y ago
      Civil servants are renowned for those things in every country.
- pydry 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure they were more pissed off with the perception of wasted money on guarding the embassy than the actual money itself.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  How did he make them waste money?
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    Downvoted.. so let me assume "by being chased all over the world in an attempt to make a shady extradition to the US". It's like being rear-ended, and when you claim on your insurance, the other party says you cost them money. Except you didn't - they where to blame.
- LogsforTwo 6y ago
  I don't think you quite appreciate that the types of people that are running this do not think of money the way you may think of it. To them, money is not a thing that is wasted or conserved, it is a means to an end, it is close to raw power. The end effect is that they will "waste" any amount of money necessary to achieve their goals, bounded by other limitations and their own priorities. The ironic thing is that you are right, it is "kindergarten level spite" that is a common characteristic of the psychopathic types that combine high functioning intellect with the moral construct of a feral juvenile, which our governments, all our governments naturally select for.
BusTrainBus 6y ago
Or... he committed a crime and is being investigated as any normal person would. Assange isn’t the messiah, he doesn’t get to dodge jurisprudence just because some people support what he does.
- vidarh 6y ago
  My view of Assange is that he seems to be a deeply unpleasant person in a number of respects, but that does not in any way explain or justify the long string of irregularities in how he is being treated and how this case is being conducted. This idea that defending his right to a fair hearing implies seeing him as a "messiah" or even as a nice person, is deeply disturbing.
- ResearchCode 6y ago
  No normal person is investigated like that. Why make things up? Spending tens of millions on case of violating the ... Bail Act of 1976? It's obvious political persecution. Dodging jurisprudence, that's rich. His Swedish accusers were not even investigated for blatant evidence tampering.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  As any normal person would? The US wouldn't even extradite Anne Sacoolas after she ran someone over, yet go to extraordinary lengths to sneak Assange away to the US to answer to an opaque foreign court. If a normal person would face this kind of BS (not allowed to talk to lawyers in court, trumped up and dubious extradition charges), the then there is no justice.
- LogsforTwo 6y ago
  I don't think you quite understand what happened. He did not commit a crime unless you somehow accept that the USA is the world dominating power that it arguably is. Assange is not a US citizen and he simply published things that were given to him, which is not a crime unless you also accept that the vampire squid that is the transatlantic ruling class power structure can just convolute and misapply laws as they wish. You seem to be one of those people that still has not come to the realization that the whole system of western government has become inherently illegitimate in and of itself through its own actions and words. It leaves people like you still saying things akin to "well, the dictator did pass a law that he can apply to anything he wakes up one morning not liking" and it placates you, as the "laws" are meant to, by implying a sense of authority through process. What should have really happened in a sane and healthy society and civilization, is that 1) the things the people that did commit crimes by stealing and handing over classified information, should never have had to do that because the system would have harshly punished the perpetrators of the violations they exposed with execution and, 2) it would have led to the prosecution of the people who were responsible for the information and systems that allowed the release of the information that was deemed classified, again, with execution. But instead, we have a clearly broken and systematically rotten system that is violently persecuting and prosecuting the messenger, because they did not like that they were exposed as the evil people perpetrating evil they were and that their incompetence also led to that being revealed. What this is all about really, is vengeance for exposure, for embarrassment, for disclosure that the many little dictatorial emperors don't have any clothes on and are just LARPing with way too much undeserved and unearned money and power.
mhh__ 6y ago
The way that he seems to have been knowingly "interacting" with the GRU would explain why they don't like him. Asset is probably too far, but he's a step beyond a useful idiot.
jillesvangurp 6y ago
No, it's just working hard to legally justify what is basically doing a political favor to the current US administration. Or at least working hard at being seen going through the motions of doing so. Appearances can be deceiving. Both Trump and Johnson basically inherited this mess from several predecessors before them. They might be getting ready to move on and they are both opportunists. The only risk for British politicians is getting caught with their pants down messing this up (either way). A judge basically needs to sign off on the obvious political desire to please the Trump administration with this. For that to happen, there's a bunch of legal boxes to be ticked and the whole thing plays out in public, which is ever so embarrassing when there are some obvious moral and legal challenges to be made. Hence the glee in this article and the drama with lawyers and prosecutors having their day in court. This thing is obviously toxic at this point. But regardless, the legal precedent is such that they can probably make this happen provided the political will is there. So, the only question is whether that political will is still real. As of November, the political landscape in the US may change and I fully expect the legal proceedings to drag out at least that long thus providing both parties a way to get out of what will no doubt be a PR mess on both sides if it actually ever comes to an extradition. That basically largely just hangs on whether Trump is still there or not. If Trump wins, the PR mess is just business as usual on the US side and it will barely register against the near constant state of media outrage. On the British side, they get some kudos for being nice which will no doubt help with their post-brexit trade negotiations. If on the other hand Biden wins, I expect he'll be interested in repairing the damage of the past few years in terms of foreign relations and not getting associated with this stinking mess he just inherited and appeasing relations with the more liberal factions in his party. Likewise, Trump might actually be wanting to pick his fights carefully if he should win. He already casually hinted at dropping the whole thing once or twice and it wouldn't surprise me if he opts for dropping this right after the election regardless of whether he wins them because after that it no longer serves him any political purpose whereas dropping this in some grand way would make him seem like a wise stateman. Win or lose, he'd have more to gain from shooting for that than some dragged out drama for the next years. The easiest way to do that would basically be the US giving up on extradition after which the UK can grudgingly release Assange without further loss of face and put him on a plane to wherever. End of story. Assange on trial in the US is not a good outcome for anyone at this point.
_pmf_ 6y ago
It's a pretty strong assumption that they care about wasting taxpayer money on avoidable issues.
- jen20 6y ago
  Furthermore one trivially disproved by looking at the entire agenda of the current government and its predecessor.
fit2rule 6y ago
Umm, the British military-industrial-espionage complex has far, far more to be worried about than Assange's vacation in Ecuador. He has revealed to the world that it is being lied to by an intelligentsia elite hell-bent on corrupting democracy and peace among nations around the world - and indeed, he has created a culture specifically designed to counter it. The truths that Wikileaks have published, can change the world - for the better. We have to prosecute the war criminals. The leaks will continue. British establishment, or otherwise.

me_me_me 6y ago

He made us waste so much money, lets waste even more money. If that were the reason for this whole thing than its kindergartner level of spite.

duncan_bayne 6y ago
... and? I've seen similar, in all walks of life. Politicians and civil servants are by no means immune to pettiness. Especially when setting an example might spare them work and money in the future.
- mothsonasloth 6y ago
  Civil servants in the UK are renowned for being inherently lazy, incompetent and devious. Its no wonder when you have to interact with politicians on a day to day basis that the cultures should mirror each other. I would much prefer Microsoft Civil Servant sp4 or an IBM Civil Servant AI powered by Big Blue.
  - BusTrainBus 6y ago
    “Civil servants in the UK are renowned for being inherently lazy, incompetent and devious.” Depressing to see such low-quality nonsense on HackerNews.
    - mothsonasloth 6y ago
      Likewise with your comment mate https://www.clivebates.com/documents/lazycivilservant.pdf https://www.clivebates.com/documents/lazycivilservant.pdf
      - CraigJPerry 6y ago
        I’m not sure that an amusing leaflet, ostensibly about civil servants but equally humorous to anyone in a large private enterprise, refutes the parent’s point.
    - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
      there are several brilliant documentaries[⁰][¹] about the inner political circles in Britain which make exactly the point GP is alluding to: [⁰] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thick_of_It https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thick_of_It [¹] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Civil servants are not "known" for anything. The civil service is a lumbering giant but you can't characterise it in such terms. You can try but you'd need to drive to a castle to get your eyes tested first
  - bzb5 6y ago
    Civil servants are renowned for those things in every country.
pydry 6y ago
I'm pretty sure they were more pissed off with the perception of wasted money on guarding the embassy than the actual money itself.
Chris2048 6y ago
How did he make them waste money?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  Downvoted.. so let me assume "by being chased all over the world in an attempt to make a shady extradition to the US". It's like being rear-ended, and when you claim on your insurance, the other party says you cost them money. Except you didn't - they where to blame.
LogsforTwo 6y ago
I don't think you quite appreciate that the types of people that are running this do not think of money the way you may think of it. To them, money is not a thing that is wasted or conserved, it is a means to an end, it is close to raw power. The end effect is that they will "waste" any amount of money necessary to achieve their goals, bounded by other limitations and their own priorities. The ironic thing is that you are right, it is "kindergarten level spite" that is a common characteristic of the psychopathic types that combine high functioning intellect with the moral construct of a feral juvenile, which our governments, all our governments naturally select for.

BusTrainBus 6y ago

Or... he committed a crime and is being investigated as any normal person would. Assange isn’t the messiah, he doesn’t get to dodge jurisprudence just because some people support what he does.

vidarh 6y ago
My view of Assange is that he seems to be a deeply unpleasant person in a number of respects, but that does not in any way explain or justify the long string of irregularities in how he is being treated and how this case is being conducted. This idea that defending his right to a fair hearing implies seeing him as a "messiah" or even as a nice person, is deeply disturbing.
ResearchCode 6y ago
No normal person is investigated like that. Why make things up? Spending tens of millions on case of violating the ... Bail Act of 1976? It's obvious political persecution. Dodging jurisprudence, that's rich. His Swedish accusers were not even investigated for blatant evidence tampering.
Chris2048 6y ago
As any normal person would? The US wouldn't even extradite Anne Sacoolas after she ran someone over, yet go to extraordinary lengths to sneak Assange away to the US to answer to an opaque foreign court. If a normal person would face this kind of BS (not allowed to talk to lawyers in court, trumped up and dubious extradition charges), the then there is no justice.
LogsforTwo 6y ago
I don't think you quite understand what happened. He did not commit a crime unless you somehow accept that the USA is the world dominating power that it arguably is. Assange is not a US citizen and he simply published things that were given to him, which is not a crime unless you also accept that the vampire squid that is the transatlantic ruling class power structure can just convolute and misapply laws as they wish. You seem to be one of those people that still has not come to the realization that the whole system of western government has become inherently illegitimate in and of itself through its own actions and words. It leaves people like you still saying things akin to "well, the dictator did pass a law that he can apply to anything he wakes up one morning not liking" and it placates you, as the "laws" are meant to, by implying a sense of authority through process. What should have really happened in a sane and healthy society and civilization, is that 1) the things the people that did commit crimes by stealing and handing over classified information, should never have had to do that because the system would have harshly punished the perpetrators of the violations they exposed with execution and, 2) it would have led to the prosecution of the people who were responsible for the information and systems that allowed the release of the information that was deemed classified, again, with execution. But instead, we have a clearly broken and systematically rotten system that is violently persecuting and prosecuting the messenger, because they did not like that they were exposed as the evil people perpetrating evil they were and that their incompetence also led to that being revealed. What this is all about really, is vengeance for exposure, for embarrassment, for disclosure that the many little dictatorial emperors don't have any clothes on and are just LARPing with way too much undeserved and unearned money and power.

mhh__ 6y ago

The way that he seems to have been knowingly "interacting" with the GRU would explain why they don't like him. Asset is probably too far, but he's a step beyond a useful idiot.

jillesvangurp 6y ago

No, it's just working hard to legally justify what is basically doing a political favor to the current US administration. Or at least working hard at being seen going through the motions of doing so. Appearances can be deceiving. Both Trump and Johnson basically inherited this mess from several predecessors before them. They might be getting ready to move on and they are both opportunists. The only risk for British politicians is getting caught with their pants down messing this up (either way). A judge basically needs to sign off on the obvious political desire to please the Trump administration with this. For that to happen, there's a bunch of legal boxes to be ticked and the whole thing plays out in public, which is ever so embarrassing when there are some obvious moral and legal challenges to be made. Hence the glee in this article and the drama with lawyers and prosecutors having their day in court. This thing is obviously toxic at this point. But regardless, the legal precedent is such that they can probably make this happen provided the political will is there. So, the only question is whether that political will is still real. As of November, the political landscape in the US may change and I fully expect the legal proceedings to drag out at least that long thus providing both parties a way to get out of what will no doubt be a PR mess on both sides if it actually ever comes to an extradition. That basically largely just hangs on whether Trump is still there or not. If Trump wins, the PR mess is just business as usual on the US side and it will barely register against the near constant state of media outrage. On the British side, they get some kudos for being nice which will no doubt help with their post-brexit trade negotiations. If on the other hand Biden wins, I expect he'll be interested in repairing the damage of the past few years in terms of foreign relations and not getting associated with this stinking mess he just inherited and appeasing relations with the more liberal factions in his party. Likewise, Trump might actually be wanting to pick his fights carefully if he should win. He already casually hinted at dropping the whole thing once or twice and it wouldn't surprise me if he opts for dropping this right after the election regardless of whether he wins them because after that it no longer serves him any political purpose whereas dropping this in some grand way would make him seem like a wise stateman. Win or lose, he'd have more to gain from shooting for that than some dragged out drama for the next years. The easiest way to do that would basically be the US giving up on extradition after which the UK can grudgingly release Assange without further loss of face and put him on a plane to wherever. End of story. Assange on trial in the US is not a good outcome for anyone at this point.

_pmf_ 6y ago

It's a pretty strong assumption that they care about wasting taxpayer money on avoidable issues.

jen20 6y ago
Furthermore one trivially disproved by looking at the entire agenda of the current government and its predecessor.

fit2rule 6y ago

Umm, the British military-industrial-espionage complex has far, far more to be worried about than Assange's vacation in Ecuador. He has revealed to the world that it is being lied to by an intelligentsia elite hell-bent on corrupting democracy and peace among nations around the world - and indeed, he has created a culture specifically designed to counter it. The truths that Wikileaks have published, can change the world - for the better. We have to prosecute the war criminals. The leaks will continue. British establishment, or otherwise.