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As a fellow German, I can understand the anger, though. Basically, we don't have a warning system anymore, because the pieces that are left are mostly being di

As a fellow German, I can understand the anger, though. Basically, we don't have a warning system anymore, because the pieces that are left are mostly being dismantled (sirens, tv and radio) and all they seem to want to replace it with is an app that doesn't reliably work when the network is fine. Lets be honest, if catastrophy should strike here, we would be last to know.

mschuster91 6y ago
This x100. It's an utter catastrophe. We had a fully working siren network (at least across Western Germany), and after the end of the Cold War it all got left to rot to pieces - estimates for rebuilding it are well into the hundreds of millions of euro range. And then the whole radio clusterfuck. AM radio got totally torn down years ago to "cut costs", there's always discussions to dismantle plain old FM radio too and only serve DAB+ instead, which doesn't have nearly the buildout level compared to plain old FM radio. I'm sick of this shit. Three decades and all what we had went down the drain. It's the same for coronavirus response - back in cold war times we had massive rolling stockpiles of everything, especially of PPE... but again, it all got eliminated to "cut costs".
- mattmanser 6y ago
  I really am struggling to understand why it's a big deal? Honestly asking, what's the thought process behind the worth of maintaing one? TV channels and radio stations will just broadcast a breaking news thing. Websites will have notices. I'm entirely unclear why you'd need an emergency broadcast system? Or place so much emphasis on its importance? What would you use it for? And why would having one that worked over AM or even FM be worth anything? People don't buy those radios any more. What difference does it make? What you're describing sounds like a massive white elephant that was probably worthless even in the cold war. A proverbial safety blanket.
  - dividedbyzero 6y ago
    In case of, say, fire at a chemical plant, it may be important that people downwind get notified right away, there might not be very much time to get inside, close windows etc. Same for collapsed dams, radiological accidents, that sort of thing. Sirens can do that very well. Other channels are much less reliable (people might not have a news website open on their computer, might not be looking at their phone to catch that notification, etc.) Radio is important because it's so widespread and low-tech. Pretty much every car has a receiver that can run for ages, there are inexpensive emergency ones that can be powered by crank and solar, so even in prolonged power outages, as long as the stations remain powered, and someone in your neighbourhood has a working receiver, it's still useful and pretty low-cost, since the infrastructure is already there.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      I'd think in case of radiological accidents it would be policy to NOT use them, to avoid panic. I fully expect road barriers / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire to be implemented, if one happens here and word of that gets out.
  - gpvos 6y ago
    FM is still widely used, in most European countries still way more than DAB.
    - AniseAbyss 6y ago
      Considering the sheer numbers of FM radios and how long they last it will be decades before DAB takes over. I don't plan on replacing mine until it breaks.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    > TV channels and radio stations will just broadcast a breaking news thing. Many young people don't even own a radio or TV any more, and even more own one but don't use it regularly. > Websites will have notices That assumes that a) the Internet is still up everywhere (by the way, same problem with the apps crap) and b) that people are 24/7 surfing on news websites. > I'm entirely unclear why you'd need an emergency broadcast system? Or place so much emphasis on its importance? To announce there is something going on and people to have a look at the TV/radio for more information. That's all. > And why would having one that worked over AM or even FM be worth anything? People don't buy those radios any more. What difference does it make? AM radios are incredibly cheap to build - all you need is a loop, a tunable capacitor, a diode, a fixed capacitor and an earphone. When I was a kid I had one as a "build it yourself" kit for children. FM radios are more complex but are literally everywhere - many cellphones have them, virtually every car built after the early 50s, kitchen appliances, bathroom radios, classic radios... DAB/DAB+ radios are relatively new, in fact they are only required to be present in cars after end of this year. And in contrast to AM/FM it is almost impossible to build one out of basic components yourself. > What you're describing sounds like a massive white elephant that was probably worthless even in the cold war. A proverbial safety blanket. There's more need than just a war for an EBS. Stuff like "the power plant nearby is leaking radioactive gas", "the industrial plants are on fire, close your windows", "there's an earthquake predicted, cover yourself", "flooding immanent" or "active terrorist case with a shooter on the run, stay indoors" is some things that I can easily imagine.
    - mattmanser 6y ago
      You're mixing two arguments, one about total communications collapse and the FM/Radio, one about immediate danger and the sirens. Total communications collapse - It would have to be over night and total for there to be ANY worth to FM/AM radio. It won't be. It's seems unrealisitic to pretend some sort of Walking Dead scenario would ever be real. If it did happen, the government would also somehow have to still be magically in control of the FM/AM broadcasters. Urgent Alert - The governments around the world have been organising nationwide lockdowns virtually overnight using existing channels. I just don't see much value even if there were something 'urgent', as it's clear people get alerted pretty quickly about this stuff.
- gpvos 6y ago
  If I understand correctly, DAB+ transmitters use less power than FM ones, but DAB+ receivers use more power than FM receivers. Considering the number of receivers versus transmitters, this doesn't appear to be a good trade-off to me. AM even more so, although AM transmitters can be really power-hungry if you want to cover an entire country with one of them.
- matthiasv 6y ago
  > We had a fully working siren network (at least across Western Germany) East Germany had a fully working siren network as well. And it was tested every Wednesday at 1pm.
  - Lev1a 6y ago
    The siren of a nearby village in the former GDR is still tested every Wednesday at 18:00.

mschuster91 6y ago

This x100. It's an utter catastrophe. We had a fully working siren network (at least across Western Germany), and after the end of the Cold War it all got left to rot to pieces - estimates for rebuilding it are well into the hundreds of millions of euro range. And then the whole radio clusterfuck. AM radio got totally torn down years ago to "cut costs", there's always discussions to dismantle plain old FM radio too and only serve DAB+ instead, which doesn't have nearly the buildout level compared to plain old FM radio. I'm sick of this shit. Three decades and all what we had went down the drain. It's the same for coronavirus response - back in cold war times we had massive rolling stockpiles of everything, especially of PPE... but again, it all got eliminated to "cut costs".

mattmanser 6y ago
I really am struggling to understand why it's a big deal? Honestly asking, what's the thought process behind the worth of maintaing one? TV channels and radio stations will just broadcast a breaking news thing. Websites will have notices. I'm entirely unclear why you'd need an emergency broadcast system? Or place so much emphasis on its importance? What would you use it for? And why would having one that worked over AM or even FM be worth anything? People don't buy those radios any more. What difference does it make? What you're describing sounds like a massive white elephant that was probably worthless even in the cold war. A proverbial safety blanket.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  In case of, say, fire at a chemical plant, it may be important that people downwind get notified right away, there might not be very much time to get inside, close windows etc. Same for collapsed dams, radiological accidents, that sort of thing. Sirens can do that very well. Other channels are much less reliable (people might not have a news website open on their computer, might not be looking at their phone to catch that notification, etc.) Radio is important because it's so widespread and low-tech. Pretty much every car has a receiver that can run for ages, there are inexpensive emergency ones that can be powered by crank and solar, so even in prolonged power outages, as long as the stations remain powered, and someone in your neighbourhood has a working receiver, it's still useful and pretty low-cost, since the infrastructure is already there.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    I'd think in case of radiological accidents it would be policy to NOT use them, to avoid panic. I fully expect road barriers / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire to be implemented, if one happens here and word of that gets out.
- gpvos 6y ago
  FM is still widely used, in most European countries still way more than DAB.
  - AniseAbyss 6y ago
    Considering the sheer numbers of FM radios and how long they last it will be decades before DAB takes over. I don't plan on replacing mine until it breaks.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > TV channels and radio stations will just broadcast a breaking news thing. Many young people don't even own a radio or TV any more, and even more own one but don't use it regularly. > Websites will have notices That assumes that a) the Internet is still up everywhere (by the way, same problem with the apps crap) and b) that people are 24/7 surfing on news websites. > I'm entirely unclear why you'd need an emergency broadcast system? Or place so much emphasis on its importance? To announce there is something going on and people to have a look at the TV/radio for more information. That's all. > And why would having one that worked over AM or even FM be worth anything? People don't buy those radios any more. What difference does it make? AM radios are incredibly cheap to build - all you need is a loop, a tunable capacitor, a diode, a fixed capacitor and an earphone. When I was a kid I had one as a "build it yourself" kit for children. FM radios are more complex but are literally everywhere - many cellphones have them, virtually every car built after the early 50s, kitchen appliances, bathroom radios, classic radios... DAB/DAB+ radios are relatively new, in fact they are only required to be present in cars after end of this year. And in contrast to AM/FM it is almost impossible to build one out of basic components yourself. > What you're describing sounds like a massive white elephant that was probably worthless even in the cold war. A proverbial safety blanket. There's more need than just a war for an EBS. Stuff like "the power plant nearby is leaking radioactive gas", "the industrial plants are on fire, close your windows", "there's an earthquake predicted, cover yourself", "flooding immanent" or "active terrorist case with a shooter on the run, stay indoors" is some things that I can easily imagine.
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    You're mixing two arguments, one about total communications collapse and the FM/Radio, one about immediate danger and the sirens. Total communications collapse - It would have to be over night and total for there to be ANY worth to FM/AM radio. It won't be. It's seems unrealisitic to pretend some sort of Walking Dead scenario would ever be real. If it did happen, the government would also somehow have to still be magically in control of the FM/AM broadcasters. Urgent Alert - The governments around the world have been organising nationwide lockdowns virtually overnight using existing channels. I just don't see much value even if there were something 'urgent', as it's clear people get alerted pretty quickly about this stuff.
gpvos 6y ago
If I understand correctly, DAB+ transmitters use less power than FM ones, but DAB+ receivers use more power than FM receivers. Considering the number of receivers versus transmitters, this doesn't appear to be a good trade-off to me. AM even more so, although AM transmitters can be really power-hungry if you want to cover an entire country with one of them.
matthiasv 6y ago
> We had a fully working siren network (at least across Western Germany) East Germany had a fully working siren network as well. And it was tested every Wednesday at 1pm.
- Lev1a 6y ago
  The siren of a nearby village in the former GDR is still tested every Wednesday at 18:00.