7 ms·

What is idiotic about the Touchbar that is not idiodic about function keys? You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys, why not use the glance f

What is idiotic about the Touchbar that is not idiodic about function keys? You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys, why not use the glance for a visual feedback loop?

codegladiator 6y ago
> You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys No, you are doing it wrong. Never need to see keyboard except when using touchbar thanks to no feedback.
zwirbl 6y ago
I barely, if ever, have to look at the function keys to hit right one
jcelerier 6y ago
> You have to look at your keyboard no
Symbiote 6y ago
On any reasonable keyboard, the function keys are in groups of four (F1-F2-F3-F4 F5-F6-F7-F8 F9-F10-F11-F12), or sometimes three. It's not necessary to look to see where the keys are.
- foobarian 6y ago
  I wish the external Mac keyboard had grouped function keys. I wish I didn't have to use an external keyboard in the first place, but touchbar is even worse. In my case debugging stuff becomes annoying with ungrouped keys because it's easy to mix up step into / step over / continue.
- brnt 6y ago
  You're excluding pretty much every laptop there.
  - linspace 6y ago
    I don't find laptop keyboards reasonable. They are a last resort.
  - lallysingh 6y ago
    Thinkpads group their function keys. Who outside apple doesn't?
    - pmontra 6y ago
      My HP laptops don't. It's been ages since I used a non laptop keyboard and I forgot about grouping. It's a useful UX though.
    - brnt 6y ago
      Dell.
    - tlavoie 6y ago
      Thinkpads also have nice keyboards, so are hardly representative of laptops in general. And in line with the other commenters, my corporate HP and Dell laptop function keys aren't grouped. Fortunately, I interact with both through a nice external keyboard.
jwr 6y ago
I definitely did not look at the function keys when working with software that I use a lot. As an example, these days, when routing PCB tracks in KiCad, when I need to switch to a different board layer, I need to look away from screen and at the keyboard in order to hit the right function key. I also have to pray that the TouchBar will register my press, as it often likes to go to "sleep". I don't know if it did register my press until I look back at my screen and check if I'm on the right layer. Having to look away from the screen when you're in the middle of routing a track on a complex multi-layer board is really annoying. Plus, it's difficult to keep a hand near the function keys without accidentally getting near one of the touchbar areas, which results in a keypress, which results in a zoom-out for me (F1). It's an abysmal user experience and a huge regression.
ch_123 6y ago
On a physical keyboard, the gaps and contours of the keys give your fingers an indication that they are pressing a single key, as opposed to a blank space or the gaps between two keys. This, combined with the grouping, makes it viable to use function keys without looking at them.
iandinwoodie 6y ago
With regard to accessibility, a blind user can reliably use the function keys due to their physical separation. In contrast, the Touch Bar removes the separation of individual keys and may pose a challenge to sight restricted users.
- athms 6y ago
  MacOS has accessibility features for TouchBar including VoiceOver.

What is idiotic about the Touchbar that is not idiodic about function keys? You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys, why not use the glance for a visual feedback loop?

codegladiator 6y ago

> You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys No, you are doing it wrong. Never need to see keyboard except when using touchbar thanks to no feedback.

zwirbl 6y ago

I barely, if ever, have to look at the function keys to hit right one

jcelerier 6y ago

> You have to look at your keyboard no

Symbiote 6y ago

On any reasonable keyboard, the function keys are in groups of four (F1-F2-F3-F4 F5-F6-F7-F8 F9-F10-F11-F12), or sometimes three. It's not necessary to look to see where the keys are.

foobarian 6y ago
I wish the external Mac keyboard had grouped function keys. I wish I didn't have to use an external keyboard in the first place, but touchbar is even worse. In my case debugging stuff becomes annoying with ungrouped keys because it's easy to mix up step into / step over / continue.
brnt 6y ago
You're excluding pretty much every laptop there.
- linspace 6y ago
  I don't find laptop keyboards reasonable. They are a last resort.
- lallysingh 6y ago
  Thinkpads group their function keys. Who outside apple doesn't?
  - pmontra 6y ago
    My HP laptops don't. It's been ages since I used a non laptop keyboard and I forgot about grouping. It's a useful UX though.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Dell.
  - tlavoie 6y ago
    Thinkpads also have nice keyboards, so are hardly representative of laptops in general. And in line with the other commenters, my corporate HP and Dell laptop function keys aren't grouped. Fortunately, I interact with both through a nice external keyboard.

jwr 6y ago

I definitely did not look at the function keys when working with software that I use a lot. As an example, these days, when routing PCB tracks in KiCad, when I need to switch to a different board layer, I need to look away from screen and at the keyboard in order to hit the right function key. I also have to pray that the TouchBar will register my press, as it often likes to go to "sleep". I don't know if it did register my press until I look back at my screen and check if I'm on the right layer. Having to look away from the screen when you're in the middle of routing a track on a complex multi-layer board is really annoying. Plus, it's difficult to keep a hand near the function keys without accidentally getting near one of the touchbar areas, which results in a keypress, which results in a zoom-out for me (F1). It's an abysmal user experience and a huge regression.

ch_123 6y ago

On a physical keyboard, the gaps and contours of the keys give your fingers an indication that they are pressing a single key, as opposed to a blank space or the gaps between two keys. This, combined with the grouping, makes it viable to use function keys without looking at them.

iandinwoodie 6y ago

With regard to accessibility, a blind user can reliably use the function keys due to their physical separation. In contrast, the Touch Bar removes the separation of individual keys and may pose a challenge to sight restricted users.

athms 6y ago
MacOS has accessibility features for TouchBar including VoiceOver.