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In America you can buy privacy if you really want it. Buy a laptop here, install linux on it, and use a VPN. The NSA can't stop you if you really want privacy.

In America you can buy privacy if you really want it. Buy a laptop here, install linux on it, and use a VPN. The NSA can't stop you if you really want privacy. This is illegal in China, where every VPN must be state sponsored and monitored.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
>In America See, that's what I'm trying to tell, What about 'Not in America'? Before I proceed further, I want to categorically state that I don't intend to come off as supporting privacy violations by one country vs another; My argument over this entire thread has been that it sucks for someone not in any of these countries as they all spy on us and it's taken for granted in this kind of discussions. That said, >use a VPN. The NSA can't stop you if you really want privacy. Because they have 'No logs' policy? Come on, don't be naive. Even the trillion dollar fruit company has been part of the program according to documents which hasn't been disputed. >This is illegal in China, where every VPN must be state sponsored and monitored. So you do agree that the Amercian VPN companies or any American company have double standards when it comes to China? Btw, almost every outsider in China installs a VPN to access content outside Great Firewall once they arrive, several U.S. services work without a VPN e.g. iMessage, Skype etc. I have heard of targeted deportation/arrests at airport, but never heard of random phone seizures at Airports.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  >What about 'Not in America'? Same advice, buy a VPN if you want the services that it provides. >Because they have 'No logs' policy? Come on, don't be naive. Contract with a VPN that is audited and resides in a legally favorable country. I hesitate to endorse any particular company, but they're out there. Maybe privacy just isn't convenient enough for you. >So you do agree that the Amercian VPN companies or any American company have double standards when it comes to China? What are you talking about? >very outsider in China installs a VPN to access content outside Great Firewall once they arrive You are allowed to do this at their law enforcement's mercy. > several U.S. services work without a VPN Surveillance wouldn't work very well if it made people quit using the services and network. > I have heard of targeted deportation/arrests at airport, but never heard of random phone seizures at Airports. I wonder why they don't feel the need to seize phones at airports. As an aside, I recall reading that the PRC forces Uighurs to install spying apps directly to their phones. That is, all the Uighurs who aren't in "Vocational Educational Camps" and have yet to flee to America, where the supposedly oppressive American surveillance state is a breath of fresh air.
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    >What are you talking about? This - > >Same advice, buy a VPN if you want the services that it provides. >You are allowed to do this at their law enforcement's mercy.
    - deathgrips 6y ago
      Oh, I see. Yes. In America you are free to use whatever VPN you pay for, regardless of what country it's hosted in. The NSA won't prohibit it and cannot break it if it's using the right algorithms. If they wanted to intentionally examine your network traffic, that would require a court order. If they wanted to get past your VPN encryption, that would require targeted hacking of a US citizen, which is typically handled by regular law enforcement. The NSA doesn't primarily concern itself with US citizens because investigating them is, in short, a huge pain in the ass. If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd gladly read it.
      - srean 6y ago
        How hard was it to get that room at AT&T with or without "court order" that you speak about. Do you consider secret courts to be in scope of this discussion. Then there is this That and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix
        deathgrips 6y ago
        No court order was necessary because AT&T consented to the NSA presence. Just like how your employer can hand over your corporate laptop to the police without needing a warrant. If you don't like it, consider dealing with another business and encrypting your traffic with a full tunnel VPN. Yes. Secret courts are reasonable due process. Do you have an alternative method that wouldn't release damaging information? Are you interested in talking about surveillance specifically or every talking point of the usual anti-American tirades?
        6y ago
KSteffensen 6y ago
I'm fairly sure that if the NSA want your data they will get it, if necessary using rubber hose cryptanalysis. Regardless of legality.
- deathgrips 6y ago
  I'm very sure that you're wrong. Do you have any evidence that the NSA kidnaps and tortures people?
  - srean 6y ago
    There are other 3 letter agencies and 3rd country jails for that and That and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix I would not be hard to convince me that NSA inputs can place a person on these.
    - deathgrips 6y ago
      When you find a way for a country to exist with 0 enemies, please let us all know.
      - srean 6y ago
        Don't change goal posts now. I responded to your claim > I'm very sure that you're wrong. Do you have any evidence that the NSA kidnaps and tortures people? that NSA can get people tortured or killed without much difficulty.
        deathgrips 6y ago
        Do you think the NSA gives the orders on who to kill and who to kidnap?
        srean 6y ago
        "Order" not sure, "recommendations" very conceivable. Anyway the issue is not NSA issue is the freedoms and protections offered by the country. If NSA doesnt but CIA does, its not any better. You started with the claim that unlike China an US citizen is unlikely to get his/her privacy encroached on quoting all sorts of processes. I just gave examples where these processes didnt do much in preventing breaches of such encroachments. Add to that what we know is just a clouded view into the tip of the iceberg because of provisions of secrecy. If the clouded tip of the iceberg looks the way it does, it is not hard for someone not so deluded, or not so deprived of a full deck, to fill in what the rest of the iceberg could look like.
TheOperator 6y ago
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good number of commercial VPN services are monitored by the US of A.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

>In America See, that's what I'm trying to tell, What about 'Not in America'? Before I proceed further, I want to categorically state that I don't intend to come off as supporting privacy violations by one country vs another; My argument over this entire thread has been that it sucks for someone not in any of these countries as they all spy on us and it's taken for granted in this kind of discussions. That said, >use a VPN. The NSA can't stop you if you really want privacy. Because they have 'No logs' policy? Come on, don't be naive. Even the trillion dollar fruit company has been part of the program according to documents which hasn't been disputed. >This is illegal in China, where every VPN must be state sponsored and monitored. So you do agree that the Amercian VPN companies or any American company have double standards when it comes to China? Btw, almost every outsider in China installs a VPN to access content outside Great Firewall once they arrive, several U.S. services work without a VPN e.g. iMessage, Skype etc. I have heard of targeted deportation/arrests at airport, but never heard of random phone seizures at Airports.

deathgrips 6y ago
>What about 'Not in America'? Same advice, buy a VPN if you want the services that it provides. >Because they have 'No logs' policy? Come on, don't be naive. Contract with a VPN that is audited and resides in a legally favorable country. I hesitate to endorse any particular company, but they're out there. Maybe privacy just isn't convenient enough for you. >So you do agree that the Amercian VPN companies or any American company have double standards when it comes to China? What are you talking about? >very outsider in China installs a VPN to access content outside Great Firewall once they arrive You are allowed to do this at their law enforcement's mercy. > several U.S. services work without a VPN Surveillance wouldn't work very well if it made people quit using the services and network. > I have heard of targeted deportation/arrests at airport, but never heard of random phone seizures at Airports. I wonder why they don't feel the need to seize phones at airports. As an aside, I recall reading that the PRC forces Uighurs to install spying apps directly to their phones. That is, all the Uighurs who aren't in "Vocational Educational Camps" and have yet to flee to America, where the supposedly oppressive American surveillance state is a breath of fresh air.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  >What are you talking about? This - > >Same advice, buy a VPN if you want the services that it provides. >You are allowed to do this at their law enforcement's mercy.
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    Oh, I see. Yes. In America you are free to use whatever VPN you pay for, regardless of what country it's hosted in. The NSA won't prohibit it and cannot break it if it's using the right algorithms. If they wanted to intentionally examine your network traffic, that would require a court order. If they wanted to get past your VPN encryption, that would require targeted hacking of a US citizen, which is typically handled by regular law enforcement. The NSA doesn't primarily concern itself with US citizens because investigating them is, in short, a huge pain in the ass. If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd gladly read it.
    - srean 6y ago
      How hard was it to get that room at AT&T with or without "court order" that you speak about. Do you consider secret courts to be in scope of this discussion. Then there is this That and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix
      - deathgrips 6y ago
        No court order was necessary because AT&T consented to the NSA presence. Just like how your employer can hand over your corporate laptop to the police without needing a warrant. If you don't like it, consider dealing with another business and encrypting your traffic with a full tunnel VPN. Yes. Secret courts are reasonable due process. Do you have an alternative method that wouldn't release damaging information? Are you interested in talking about surveillance specifically or every talking point of the usual anti-American tirades?
        6y ago

KSteffensen 6y ago

I'm fairly sure that if the NSA want your data they will get it, if necessary using rubber hose cryptanalysis. Regardless of legality.

deathgrips 6y ago
I'm very sure that you're wrong. Do you have any evidence that the NSA kidnaps and tortures people?
- srean 6y ago
  There are other 3 letter agencies and 3rd country jails for that and That and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix I would not be hard to convince me that NSA inputs can place a person on these.
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    When you find a way for a country to exist with 0 enemies, please let us all know.
    - srean 6y ago
      Don't change goal posts now. I responded to your claim > I'm very sure that you're wrong. Do you have any evidence that the NSA kidnaps and tortures people? that NSA can get people tortured or killed without much difficulty.
      - deathgrips 6y ago
        Do you think the NSA gives the orders on who to kill and who to kidnap?
        srean 6y ago
        "Order" not sure, "recommendations" very conceivable. Anyway the issue is not NSA issue is the freedoms and protections offered by the country. If NSA doesnt but CIA does, its not any better. You started with the claim that unlike China an US citizen is unlikely to get his/her privacy encroached on quoting all sorts of processes. I just gave examples where these processes didnt do much in preventing breaches of such encroachments. Add to that what we know is just a clouded view into the tip of the iceberg because of provisions of secrecy. If the clouded tip of the iceberg looks the way it does, it is not hard for someone not so deluded, or not so deprived of a full deck, to fill in what the rest of the iceberg could look like.

TheOperator 6y ago

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good number of commercial VPN services are monitored by the US of A.