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Are you sure you didnt spell "China cloud" and "Huawei" wrong? /s Just because we (Germans, Europeans) are culturally closer to Americans and share certain val

Are you sure you didnt spell "China cloud" and "Huawei" wrong? /s Just because we (Germans, Europeans) are culturally closer to Americans and share certain values does not mean that we should have a double standard on our external affairs. We are kicking out Huawei. When will we kick out Amazon, Google, Apple and Cisco?

tick_tock_tick 6y ago
There needs to be EU based options before any of them could be replaced.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  As always, if there ever threatened to emerge one it will be bought by a US company with free petrodollar.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Though I completely agree that the double standard is ridiculous, the reasoning behind it likely involves the complicated arrangement between Germany and the US military. China doesn't still have 30,000 troops "occupying" Germany.
- puszczyk 6y ago
  How are they occupying Germany? When was the last time they’ve intervened or even threatened to intervene? Don’t blow it out of proportion.
  - fvdessen 6y ago
    Didn't they threaten to invade the Netherlands if they continue their investigation in US War Crimes ?
    - sdoering 6y ago
      You are, I believe, referring to the "American Service Members Protection Act" [1], signed into law in 2002 by Bush? This law, still on the books, theoretically allows the president to order military action against the ICC in Den Haag (The Hague) should they ever try an American Service Member. > The act also prohibits U.S. military aid to countries that are party to the court. However, exceptions are allowed for aid to NATO members, major non-NATO allies, Taiwan, and countries that have entered into "Article 98 agreements", agreeing not to hand over U.S. nationals to the court. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... Nonetheless that does not make the US forces in Germany an occupational force.
      - srean 6y ago
        > Nonetheless that does not make the US forces in Germany an occupational force. A stick is a stick regardless of whether it has been used to thrash someone lately.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    I put it in quotes in an attempt to highlight that it was not a formal military occupation. Their presence does show some level of influence the US military has and it is a threat to prevent Germany from making any truly radical moves.
- syshum 6y ago
  Has Germany asked the US to leave? Taking all the US Money with it? Some how I doubt it. Maybe Germany (and the EU as a whole) should start paying for its own defense, and paying their agreed to share of GDP into NATO while they are at it
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    > Maybe Germany (and the EU as a whole) should start paying for its own defense, and paying their agreed to share of GDP into NATO while they are at it Huh, and here I thought it was 2020 and not 2024. Weird.
    - Semaphor 6y ago
      For the downvoters: > Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level [2% of GDP] will […] aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade. From the 2014 NATO summit: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/351406/Wales_Summit_Declaration.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
mcqueenjordan 6y ago
I think there’s a lot more to it than just sharing values. If my values are mutually exclusive with your values, then there’s a lot more reason to kick me out.
pmontra 6y ago
Maybe when we (re)create our own electronics industry. Even China has problems with sourcing components (the TSMC/USA licenses case). It also doesn't help to be a collection of small countries that can be played one against the other by USA, China and Russia and possibly others.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > Maybe when we (re)create our own electronics industry. It works the other way around. We cannot have an European industry meanwhile USA government backed-up companies are competing with our startups. > collection of small countries Europe is bigger than the USA. And the division within the USA is as big or bigger than Europe. And, we cannot talk about China.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    > Europe is bigger than the USA. OK, on some metrics. But I think nobody questions which country is still leading the world. > And the division within the USA is as big or bigger than Europe. And, we cannot talk about China. I don't agree with this or we're talking about different things. The grip of Washington DC on the states of the USA is much stronger than Brussels' on the countries of the EU. The degree of sovereignty is very different. No matter the internal divisions inside the USA, first of all there is one USA. On the other side of the ocean first of all there are multiple competing EU countries, each of them trying to exploit the others and the EU and with different economics and foreign policy goals. About that, do (random picks among large states) California, Texas and New York have a foreign policy worth talking about?
    - Dahoon 6y ago
      You make it sound very benign and positive; "leading the world". In actuality it is more often than not bullying, forcing, coercing, buying. You can of course call that leading the world but really it is leading in the same way wolfpacks are leading their pray. There's no doubt that leading -when meant in a positive way- the US is not in any way a leader or near the top. Being number one in say use of military force around the world, most incarcerated, worst foreign aid by any western country (tied to the defence industry), etc. isn't something anyone else is striving for. So yes, the US might be "a leader", but so was Saddam Hussein and Pol Pot, and yes it migh be able to bully others to do what it want, but it is in no positive way a leader of the world. So in short, yes many many people is most definitely questioning that the US is a world leader.
fauigerzigerk 6y ago
I find that neither pragmatic nor ethically sound. If you're in a security alliance with countries you share values and goals with, how can you not apply different standards in terms of data sharing? And how can you not react somewhat differently to any transgressions, mistakes and imperfections? I know Trump has made this very difficult by making his personal whims indistinguishable from the interests and commitments of his country. In my view this is a form of corruption that does massive damage to the U.S. And yes, democratic control over security services has been rather tenuous at the best of times. But I still see many good reasons not to impose broad economic sanctions on allied democracies. And I do see good reasons to side with them against completely illegitimate regimes that use their security services to keep themselves in power without a democratic mandate. Of course there are many grey areas and a lot of valid criticism. But asking for Europe to officially impose economic sanctions on the U.S is not a proportionate reaction to that. The economic damage would far outweigh any additional freedom or security. If you refuse to apply a degree of pragmatism and proportionality, other countries would then have to impose economic sanctions on Germany for their use of Staatstrojaner. Essentially, all cross border trade in digital goods and services would have to end globally. That can't be a good idea.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  >And I do see good reasons to side with them against completely illegitimate regimes that use their security services to keep themselves in power without a democratic mandate. Really though, with the system in place in the US it isn't in a position to point fingers. Do you really feel the poor homeless person has more power in the US elections than in those you just compared it to ? I really don't. So yes democratic countries should work together but the question is, does the US belong in that club or did it force itself on it? The answer isn't really that easy.
  - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
    >Do you really feel the poor homeless person has more power in the US elections than in those you just compared it to ? Yes I do. It follows from the simple fact that there are no free and fair elections on those countries. Freedom of speech in combination with elections gives us some power to change things. People in dictotorships don't have those powers, regardless of whether or not they are homeless. Homelessless exists in Europe as well by the way.
snarf21 6y ago
You answered your own question. We can't control Huawei so goodbye. The others we can so they get to stay.
throw51319 6y ago
Are Huawei and Amazon/Google/Apple/Cisco equivalent? Is the "spying" by the US on Germany as damaging to Germany's future as spying by the Chinese? If you answer these questions honestly, you'll understand why you're making a false equivalence.

tick_tock_tick 6y ago

There needs to be EU based options before any of them could be replaced.

PeterStuer 6y ago
As always, if there ever threatened to emerge one it will be bought by a US company with free petrodollar.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Though I completely agree that the double standard is ridiculous, the reasoning behind it likely involves the complicated arrangement between Germany and the US military. China doesn't still have 30,000 troops "occupying" Germany.

puszczyk 6y ago
How are they occupying Germany? When was the last time they’ve intervened or even threatened to intervene? Don’t blow it out of proportion.
- fvdessen 6y ago
  Didn't they threaten to invade the Netherlands if they continue their investigation in US War Crimes ?
  - sdoering 6y ago
    You are, I believe, referring to the "American Service Members Protection Act" [1], signed into law in 2002 by Bush? This law, still on the books, theoretically allows the president to order military action against the ICC in Den Haag (The Hague) should they ever try an American Service Member. > The act also prohibits U.S. military aid to countries that are party to the court. However, exceptions are allowed for aid to NATO members, major non-NATO allies, Taiwan, and countries that have entered into "Article 98 agreements", agreeing not to hand over U.S. nationals to the court. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... Nonetheless that does not make the US forces in Germany an occupational force.
    - srean 6y ago
      > Nonetheless that does not make the US forces in Germany an occupational force. A stick is a stick regardless of whether it has been used to thrash someone lately.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  I put it in quotes in an attempt to highlight that it was not a formal military occupation. Their presence does show some level of influence the US military has and it is a threat to prevent Germany from making any truly radical moves.
syshum 6y ago
Has Germany asked the US to leave? Taking all the US Money with it? Some how I doubt it. Maybe Germany (and the EU as a whole) should start paying for its own defense, and paying their agreed to share of GDP into NATO while they are at it
- Semaphor 6y ago
  > Maybe Germany (and the EU as a whole) should start paying for its own defense, and paying their agreed to share of GDP into NATO while they are at it Huh, and here I thought it was 2020 and not 2024. Weird.
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    For the downvoters: > Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level [2% of GDP] will […] aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade. From the 2014 NATO summit: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/351406/Wales_Summit_Declaration.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

mcqueenjordan 6y ago

I think there’s a lot more to it than just sharing values. If my values are mutually exclusive with your values, then there’s a lot more reason to kick me out.

pmontra 6y ago

Maybe when we (re)create our own electronics industry. Even China has problems with sourcing components (the TSMC/USA licenses case). It also doesn't help to be a collection of small countries that can be played one against the other by USA, China and Russia and possibly others.

Hokusai 6y ago
> Maybe when we (re)create our own electronics industry. It works the other way around. We cannot have an European industry meanwhile USA government backed-up companies are competing with our startups. > collection of small countries Europe is bigger than the USA. And the division within the USA is as big or bigger than Europe. And, we cannot talk about China.
- pmontra 6y ago
  > Europe is bigger than the USA. OK, on some metrics. But I think nobody questions which country is still leading the world. > And the division within the USA is as big or bigger than Europe. And, we cannot talk about China. I don't agree with this or we're talking about different things. The grip of Washington DC on the states of the USA is much stronger than Brussels' on the countries of the EU. The degree of sovereignty is very different. No matter the internal divisions inside the USA, first of all there is one USA. On the other side of the ocean first of all there are multiple competing EU countries, each of them trying to exploit the others and the EU and with different economics and foreign policy goals. About that, do (random picks among large states) California, Texas and New York have a foreign policy worth talking about?
  - Dahoon 6y ago
    You make it sound very benign and positive; "leading the world". In actuality it is more often than not bullying, forcing, coercing, buying. You can of course call that leading the world but really it is leading in the same way wolfpacks are leading their pray. There's no doubt that leading -when meant in a positive way- the US is not in any way a leader or near the top. Being number one in say use of military force around the world, most incarcerated, worst foreign aid by any western country (tied to the defence industry), etc. isn't something anyone else is striving for. So yes, the US might be "a leader", but so was Saddam Hussein and Pol Pot, and yes it migh be able to bully others to do what it want, but it is in no positive way a leader of the world. So in short, yes many many people is most definitely questioning that the US is a world leader.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago

I find that neither pragmatic nor ethically sound. If you're in a security alliance with countries you share values and goals with, how can you not apply different standards in terms of data sharing? And how can you not react somewhat differently to any transgressions, mistakes and imperfections? I know Trump has made this very difficult by making his personal whims indistinguishable from the interests and commitments of his country. In my view this is a form of corruption that does massive damage to the U.S. And yes, democratic control over security services has been rather tenuous at the best of times. But I still see many good reasons not to impose broad economic sanctions on allied democracies. And I do see good reasons to side with them against completely illegitimate regimes that use their security services to keep themselves in power without a democratic mandate. Of course there are many grey areas and a lot of valid criticism. But asking for Europe to officially impose economic sanctions on the U.S is not a proportionate reaction to that. The economic damage would far outweigh any additional freedom or security. If you refuse to apply a degree of pragmatism and proportionality, other countries would then have to impose economic sanctions on Germany for their use of Staatstrojaner. Essentially, all cross border trade in digital goods and services would have to end globally. That can't be a good idea.

Dahoon 6y ago
>And I do see good reasons to side with them against completely illegitimate regimes that use their security services to keep themselves in power without a democratic mandate. Really though, with the system in place in the US it isn't in a position to point fingers. Do you really feel the poor homeless person has more power in the US elections than in those you just compared it to ? I really don't. So yes democratic countries should work together but the question is, does the US belong in that club or did it force itself on it? The answer isn't really that easy.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  >Do you really feel the poor homeless person has more power in the US elections than in those you just compared it to ? Yes I do. It follows from the simple fact that there are no free and fair elections on those countries. Freedom of speech in combination with elections gives us some power to change things. People in dictotorships don't have those powers, regardless of whether or not they are homeless. Homelessless exists in Europe as well by the way.

snarf21 6y ago

You answered your own question. We can't control Huawei so goodbye. The others we can so they get to stay.

throw51319 6y ago

Are Huawei and Amazon/Google/Apple/Cisco equivalent? Is the "spying" by the US on Germany as damaging to Germany's future as spying by the Chinese? If you answer these questions honestly, you'll understand why you're making a false equivalence.