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> Identifying criminals should be made efficient This is a nightmare sentiment. No, identifying criminals should not be efficient at all. Everyone is a crimina

> Identifying criminals should be made efficient This is a nightmare sentiment. No, identifying criminals should not be efficient at all. Everyone is a criminal -- whether that's speeding, jaywalking, vandalism, littering, loitering, or whatever, the last thing we need is police having more powers to point to someone they dislike and saying, "We've got footage of you doing X, comply with our demands or suffer the consequences."

fiter 6y ago
Better for us to actually remove those laws.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Hmm... I disagree. Speed limits are important. So are various other laws that require human judgement to interpret. There's a reason we have 'judges' -- the law will never cover all corner cases, and the law needs to set boundaries that are sometimes ok to override. You need a human in the loop evaluating various interpretations and keeping those interpretations current with societal expectations. (And those humans absolutely should not be the police.)
  - roenxi 6y ago
    > Speed limits are important. So are various other laws that require human judgement to interpret. What is there to interpret about a speed limit? If someone is going faster than the speed limit they are breaking the law. Add an error bar for equipment accuracy and the case is as closed as anything can be in life. We don't want judges making decisions unless it is strictly necessary. That is where racism/sexism/classism/etc start entering the legal system. Judges are empowered to judge, but it'd be better if they can keep it to a minimum,
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      > If someone is going faster than the speed limit they are breaking the law. In some (many?) jurisdictions, posted speed limits are not absolute limits but are rather evidence for the judiciary to consider when deciding whether the driver was operating a motor vehicle faster than what was reasonable and proper. (Faster than reasonable and proper being the actual law that has possibly been broken.) Removing judicial discretion in favor of zero-tolerance laws is a step in the wrong direction I believe.
    - jimmydorry 6y ago
      Speed cameras can be poorly calibrated / setup, there can be multiple cars in frame and they ticket them all, it can be a different person driving, the OCR on the license plate can fail and pick a different car, the officer may have tampered with the evidence, the car may have been stolen, etc. All of these require due process for something as simple as a speeding ticket.
- scribbles99 6y ago
  Best to do both.
throwawaysea 6y ago
We have laws for a reason and they must be enforced. Your argument here seems to be hinged around naming less damaging crimes like jaywalking to make enforcement seem frivolous. But to most people, enforcing laws against vandalism or littering do matter. Leaving aside the crimes you named, police do need tools to identify, locate, and arrest those who engage in more serious crimes like property damage (car thefts, burglaries, bike thefts, etc), violence (rioters throwing Molotov cocktails, assaults, shootings), looting, etc. Enforcing the law matters in order to retain a stable and just society. It absolutely should be efficient, both in the interest of serving justice so there is a deterrent against crime, but also to save taxpayers’ money by making more efficient use of policing resources. Suggesting we keep police from enforcing the law efficiently is illogical and dangerous, and followed to its conclusion, is no different than arguing that police should also be denied other tools like computers or electricity.
zo1 6y ago
Then get rid of the law! What is the point of the law if we're all "criminals" according to you and any attempts at prosecuting such laws is met with "rules" about making it less effective. How ever did this become about "how can this tool be used to harass people". Police can harass you using absolutely nothing other than the powers given to them by virtue of being a policeman. Identifying criminals that are breaking the law should absolutely be easy, efficient and absolute. Either you agree they are breaking the law and that the law is just, or the law is unjust. Otherwise, if you agree that there is a "grey" area between the two, then you're just inviting abuse by virtue of selective-policing.
squiggleblaz 6y ago
Thank God - speeding, jaywalking and littering are very rarely criminal.
drusepth 6y ago
I would very much like to see less speeding, jaywalking, vandalism, littering, and loitering. Reducing these all seem like they'd have a net positive effect. Giving police better technology to do their jobs doesn't automatically make them corrupt. Those who are corrupt are going to temporarily have more power, sure, but that's all the more reason to root them out and implement better transparency and balance checks at the same time.

fiter 6y ago

Better for us to actually remove those laws.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Hmm... I disagree. Speed limits are important. So are various other laws that require human judgement to interpret. There's a reason we have 'judges' -- the law will never cover all corner cases, and the law needs to set boundaries that are sometimes ok to override. You need a human in the loop evaluating various interpretations and keeping those interpretations current with societal expectations. (And those humans absolutely should not be the police.)
- roenxi 6y ago
  > Speed limits are important. So are various other laws that require human judgement to interpret. What is there to interpret about a speed limit? If someone is going faster than the speed limit they are breaking the law. Add an error bar for equipment accuracy and the case is as closed as anything can be in life. We don't want judges making decisions unless it is strictly necessary. That is where racism/sexism/classism/etc start entering the legal system. Judges are empowered to judge, but it'd be better if they can keep it to a minimum,
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    > If someone is going faster than the speed limit they are breaking the law. In some (many?) jurisdictions, posted speed limits are not absolute limits but are rather evidence for the judiciary to consider when deciding whether the driver was operating a motor vehicle faster than what was reasonable and proper. (Faster than reasonable and proper being the actual law that has possibly been broken.) Removing judicial discretion in favor of zero-tolerance laws is a step in the wrong direction I believe.
  - jimmydorry 6y ago
    Speed cameras can be poorly calibrated / setup, there can be multiple cars in frame and they ticket them all, it can be a different person driving, the OCR on the license plate can fail and pick a different car, the officer may have tampered with the evidence, the car may have been stolen, etc. All of these require due process for something as simple as a speeding ticket.
scribbles99 6y ago
Best to do both.

throwawaysea 6y ago

We have laws for a reason and they must be enforced. Your argument here seems to be hinged around naming less damaging crimes like jaywalking to make enforcement seem frivolous. But to most people, enforcing laws against vandalism or littering do matter. Leaving aside the crimes you named, police do need tools to identify, locate, and arrest those who engage in more serious crimes like property damage (car thefts, burglaries, bike thefts, etc), violence (rioters throwing Molotov cocktails, assaults, shootings), looting, etc. Enforcing the law matters in order to retain a stable and just society. It absolutely should be efficient, both in the interest of serving justice so there is a deterrent against crime, but also to save taxpayers’ money by making more efficient use of policing resources. Suggesting we keep police from enforcing the law efficiently is illogical and dangerous, and followed to its conclusion, is no different than arguing that police should also be denied other tools like computers or electricity.

zo1 6y ago

Then get rid of the law! What is the point of the law if we're all "criminals" according to you and any attempts at prosecuting such laws is met with "rules" about making it less effective. How ever did this become about "how can this tool be used to harass people". Police can harass you using absolutely nothing other than the powers given to them by virtue of being a policeman. Identifying criminals that are breaking the law should absolutely be easy, efficient and absolute. Either you agree they are breaking the law and that the law is just, or the law is unjust. Otherwise, if you agree that there is a "grey" area between the two, then you're just inviting abuse by virtue of selective-policing.

squiggleblaz 6y ago

Thank God - speeding, jaywalking and littering are very rarely criminal.

drusepth 6y ago

I would very much like to see less speeding, jaywalking, vandalism, littering, and loitering. Reducing these all seem like they'd have a net positive effect. Giving police better technology to do their jobs doesn't automatically make them corrupt. Those who are corrupt are going to temporarily have more power, sure, but that's all the more reason to root them out and implement better transparency and balance checks at the same time.