4 ms·

I’m not sure why you’re trying to trivialize my comment. I don’t see what this has to do with Fox News, but even if it did, they often do cover stories and angl

I’m not sure why you’re trying to trivialize my comment. I don’t see what this has to do with Fox News, but even if it did, they often do cover stories and angles that other media with different biases do not. It doesn’t make sense to dismiss them as a source outright, given virtually all news media carry biases and virtually all have examples of misinformation. Getting back to Portland - if you haven’t kept an eye on what’s happening there, and are denying that there are disruptive riots virtually every night in one part of the city, then you are gaslighting. There is a mountain of evidence that a group of antifa/BLM participants willfully partake in criminal activity under the guise of racial justice with regularity (example https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-protests-police-declare-riot-on-100th-night-of-protests/#app https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portland-protests-police-declar...). One of them even murdered another citizen recently (see https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/03/us/michael-reinoehl-arrest-portland-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/03/us/michael-reinoehl-arres...).

Pfhreak 6y ago
Your framing here is astoundingly biased and doesn't reflect what most reasonable people have understood to be the case. (That the vast majority of the violence comes from police.) The protests aren't peaceful, but that's deliberate. "No Justice; No Peace" means something. The protesters have been non-violent, but non-peaceful on purpose. The police have consistently escalated (just like they did in Seattle.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gwright 6y ago
  Here is what I can't figure out. What would have to happen in Portland for the protestors to stop protesting? What would represent success? I honestly don't know. Am I wrong to think that most residents of Portland would like their community to go back to some sort of "normal" peaceful routine? How can that happen if there is a minority of residents who have a perpetual veto on returning to "normal"? And even if the demonstrations stopped and therefore the police reaction to demonstrations stopped, doesn't "normal" policing have to happen? What type of policing would be accepted by those who are protesting?
  - Kednicma 6y ago
    We're looking for one of: * Defunding. There was a moderate budget cut already, but we want more, and we want the city to not just remove budget from PPB but actually put money into social welfare programs. * Non-violence. The city council and mayor theoretically have the power to order the police to stop using tear gas right now, and similarly they could order the police to be less violent in all of their activities. * Justice. The police are failing to arrest fascist street thugs, and instead send them text messages letting them know not to show up [0]. Meanwhile they do nothing to prevent federal officers from using unmarked vans to yank people off the streets. * Polis. The police mostly live in Vancouver or its suburbs, over in Washington State. This is absurd; police ought to live in their respective precincts, just like how city councillors must live in their district. Even my credit union requires me to live in my county! * Reform. There are many popular initiatives [1] which would force police work to be more humane and considerate, if only they were adopted. I would consider any of those to be a victory. We got some defunding earlier, and protestors agreed that it was a good token effort but not enough. Nobody wants the old routine of police violence and abuse. Nobody particularly wants to be tear-gassed, I think. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disturbing-texts-between-oregon-police-far-right-group-prompts-investigation-n972161 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disturbing-texts-betwee... [1] https://8cantwait.org/ https://8cantwait.org/
    - gwright 6y ago
      Thank you for responding. I am too far away from the details and the history of the Portland police department to pretend to know what the right course of action is, but it seems to me that the "non-peaceful" part of the protest is actually making any resolution that much more difficult. That is to say it is a tactic that makes the problem worse not better. I'm also pretty mystified as to why the normal political process was not able to resolve concerns about police activities/methodologies. As far as I can tell from afar, all the Portland elected officials are ideologically aligned with those initiatives. What prevented them from responding and if there really isn't the political will to make those changes through normal peaceful means, by what right to the protesters get to force their will on the entire community?
scribbles99 6y ago
"they often do cover stories and angles that other media with different biases do not" Lying is technically a different angle, yeah.
anigbrowl 6y ago
One of them even murdered another citizen recently It's widely agreed that an Antifa-supporting protester killed someone. whether it was murder we'll never know as he was killed by US Marshals prior to trial (and whether or not that was murder, we may not know any time soon either). there was a strong self-defense argument to be made - and yes I read the criminal complaint that was used to swear out the warrant, and don't think it would have stood up to close scrutiny.
- asguy 6y ago
  > there was a strong self-defense argument to be made How do you figure? From the evidence collected it appeared to me (and others) to be premeditated. [0] Particularly interesting to me were images from the garage security camera showing Reinoehl lying in wait. [0] - https://www.mcda.us/index.php/documents/state-of-oregon-vs-michael-forest-reinoehl-affidavits-warrant-da-info.pdf/ https://www.mcda.us/index.php/documents/state-of-oregon-vs-m...
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    The complainant contradicted the statements of several witnesses as well as the early versions of the video I saw about the order of events of the shooting itself (although I don't have a full copy of the video file submitted to the court with the warrant application, so that determination is tentative). Reinoehl's presence in the garage does not seem to me to meet any definition of 'lying in wait', since he had no prior knowledge of anyone coming that way, and indeed Danielson (the shooting victim) and Pappas (his buddy) did not go in that direction. As documented, Reinoehl looked over his shoulder, appeared to notice the two men walking behind him, and entered the garage where he paused briefly and seemed to draw his weapon. It is just as easily argued that he took cover out of anxiety that he was being followed, and then exited the garage after assuring himself that he had access to the weapon. You will recall that the same photographs you cite seem to show Danielson holding a large canister of pepper spray and a baton in his hands (documented on p17). Lying in wait is an aggravating factor demonstrating a murder's prior intent to assail an unwary victim. Ducking out of sight and readying a weapon might be a very reasonable thing to do if you discovered you were being followed by a person bearing two weapons. A trial would have looked into what interactions those parties had earlier in the day, and the exact sequence of events around the shooting, ie who approached who and whether Reinoehl shot Danielson first or whether the shooting was a response to Danielson spraying Reinoehl. I don't know the answer to the first two questions and while it appeared to me that the use of pepper spray preceded both gunshots, being sure would require access to the original video and testimony from the multiple witnesses.

Pfhreak 6y ago

Your framing here is astoundingly biased and doesn't reflect what most reasonable people have understood to be the case. (That the vast majority of the violence comes from police.) The protests aren't peaceful, but that's deliberate. "No Justice; No Peace" means something. The protesters have been non-violent, but non-peaceful on purpose. The police have consistently escalated (just like they did in Seattle.)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gwright 6y ago
Here is what I can't figure out. What would have to happen in Portland for the protestors to stop protesting? What would represent success? I honestly don't know. Am I wrong to think that most residents of Portland would like their community to go back to some sort of "normal" peaceful routine? How can that happen if there is a minority of residents who have a perpetual veto on returning to "normal"? And even if the demonstrations stopped and therefore the police reaction to demonstrations stopped, doesn't "normal" policing have to happen? What type of policing would be accepted by those who are protesting?
- Kednicma 6y ago
  We're looking for one of: * Defunding. There was a moderate budget cut already, but we want more, and we want the city to not just remove budget from PPB but actually put money into social welfare programs. * Non-violence. The city council and mayor theoretically have the power to order the police to stop using tear gas right now, and similarly they could order the police to be less violent in all of their activities. * Justice. The police are failing to arrest fascist street thugs, and instead send them text messages letting them know not to show up [0]. Meanwhile they do nothing to prevent federal officers from using unmarked vans to yank people off the streets. * Polis. The police mostly live in Vancouver or its suburbs, over in Washington State. This is absurd; police ought to live in their respective precincts, just like how city councillors must live in their district. Even my credit union requires me to live in my county! * Reform. There are many popular initiatives [1] which would force police work to be more humane and considerate, if only they were adopted. I would consider any of those to be a victory. We got some defunding earlier, and protestors agreed that it was a good token effort but not enough. Nobody wants the old routine of police violence and abuse. Nobody particularly wants to be tear-gassed, I think. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disturbing-texts-between-oregon-police-far-right-group-prompts-investigation-n972161 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disturbing-texts-betwee... [1] https://8cantwait.org/ https://8cantwait.org/
  - gwright 6y ago
    Thank you for responding. I am too far away from the details and the history of the Portland police department to pretend to know what the right course of action is, but it seems to me that the "non-peaceful" part of the protest is actually making any resolution that much more difficult. That is to say it is a tactic that makes the problem worse not better. I'm also pretty mystified as to why the normal political process was not able to resolve concerns about police activities/methodologies. As far as I can tell from afar, all the Portland elected officials are ideologically aligned with those initiatives. What prevented them from responding and if there really isn't the political will to make those changes through normal peaceful means, by what right to the protesters get to force their will on the entire community?

scribbles99 6y ago

"they often do cover stories and angles that other media with different biases do not" Lying is technically a different angle, yeah.

anigbrowl 6y ago

One of them even murdered another citizen recently It's widely agreed that an Antifa-supporting protester killed someone. whether it was murder we'll never know as he was killed by US Marshals prior to trial (and whether or not that was murder, we may not know any time soon either). there was a strong self-defense argument to be made - and yes I read the criminal complaint that was used to swear out the warrant, and don't think it would have stood up to close scrutiny.

asguy 6y ago
> there was a strong self-defense argument to be made How do you figure? From the evidence collected it appeared to me (and others) to be premeditated. [0] Particularly interesting to me were images from the garage security camera showing Reinoehl lying in wait. [0] - https://www.mcda.us/index.php/documents/state-of-oregon-vs-michael-forest-reinoehl-affidavits-warrant-da-info.pdf/ https://www.mcda.us/index.php/documents/state-of-oregon-vs-m...
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  The complainant contradicted the statements of several witnesses as well as the early versions of the video I saw about the order of events of the shooting itself (although I don't have a full copy of the video file submitted to the court with the warrant application, so that determination is tentative). Reinoehl's presence in the garage does not seem to me to meet any definition of 'lying in wait', since he had no prior knowledge of anyone coming that way, and indeed Danielson (the shooting victim) and Pappas (his buddy) did not go in that direction. As documented, Reinoehl looked over his shoulder, appeared to notice the two men walking behind him, and entered the garage where he paused briefly and seemed to draw his weapon. It is just as easily argued that he took cover out of anxiety that he was being followed, and then exited the garage after assuring himself that he had access to the weapon. You will recall that the same photographs you cite seem to show Danielson holding a large canister of pepper spray and a baton in his hands (documented on p17). Lying in wait is an aggravating factor demonstrating a murder's prior intent to assail an unwary victim. Ducking out of sight and readying a weapon might be a very reasonable thing to do if you discovered you were being followed by a person bearing two weapons. A trial would have looked into what interactions those parties had earlier in the day, and the exact sequence of events around the shooting, ie who approached who and whether Reinoehl shot Danielson first or whether the shooting was a response to Danielson spraying Reinoehl. I don't know the answer to the first two questions and while it appeared to me that the use of pepper spray preceded both gunshots, being sure would require access to the original video and testimony from the multiple witnesses.