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They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosys

They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosystem and profit on it - you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules, you get removed. I would expect the same treatment on any app store.

foota 6y ago
I believe epic's point is that they believe the ToS to be illegal.
- thdrdt 6y ago
  Then they should first fight it before breaking it.
  - xmprt 6y ago
    You can't sue someone unless you can prove damages. There's no way to fight this without breaking the rule first. I'm not a lawyer though so maybe there's an exception to this rule.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      NAL but you can sue without breaking contract if you're challenging the contract's legality. Epic also is generally challenging Apple's use of their position to 1) not allow other app stores, and 2) take 30% of each sale (while other processors take 3%), which would be enough damages to sue over. Epic breaking contract is entirely a PR move.
      - manicdee 6y ago
        An App Store is not a payment processor. How much of a cut is Steam taking when you sell software on their store? How much of a cut will Epic be taking when you sell software on their store? This is completely different to how much Mastercard charges you for selling stuff from your store.
    - giovannibajo1 6y ago
      They have proved that, already. They could have reverted the direct payment system, kept only Apple IAP, and then sued even for damage recovery of 30% since the beginning of the lawsuit (or even the beginning of Fortnite on iOS). Apple has clearly written even in legal documents of the lawsuit that reverting the direct payment change would have been enough to keep operating Fortnite on iOS fully featured.
    - nodamage 6y ago
      I'm not sure why people keep repeating this. Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million that Apple has collected in Fortnite IAP fees.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Would they have standing if they weren't punished for violating the TOS?
  - gorkish 6y ago
    Sure they could; but I find it kind of hard to criticize their strategy of getting a hundred million people to commiserate with them before they try. Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it; they must be over the moon. I've owned and used Apple products continuously for over 30 years, and I'm not ashamed to say that I am rooting HARD for Epic on this. Apple doesn't give a shit about innovation when they are making money hand over fist. They are spending all their time nurturing their cash cow. It's time to butcher that motherfucker.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it You mean, Apple, like any grown-up company would do in their place, has rightfully shown Epic the door? Google kicked Fortnite from Play Store for the same reason. And had they tried this against consoles (where devs also pay 30%), they'd be kicked out of the respective console forever. What's a "non-cry-baby" reaction in your opinion?
      - viraptor 6y ago
        Blocking the new release and blocking the version which allowed out of ecosystem payments. That's it. It's not like Apple gains anything from further actions.
        dmitriid 6y ago
        Further actions, unless I'm mistaken, are the direct application of TOS. Epic kept on pushing updates to Fortnite that violated TOS. Your dev account will be disabled if you keep violating TOS. Epic hoped for preferential treatment just because they are big, and they've enjoyed preferential treatment on consoles. hey've run into Apple applying their TOS equally to everybody and are now somehow pissed.
    - FractalParadigm 6y ago
      > Apple doesn't give a shit about innovation when they are making money hand over fist It's crazy but I didn't even notice this paradigm shift until they announced their credit card. Apple used to be the company to push boundaries and revolutionize computing in some way every few years. The last real "innovation" I feel Apple has come up with was the Retina display, pushing OEMs everywhere towards higher pixel counts and better overall user experiences. Before that we got everything from the iPhone and iPod and even iTunes, to USB and WiFi brought to the mainstream, to crazy, beautiful designs that worked well, like the iMac G4. Just for instance working off local memory, The iMac hasn't seen a form factor update since what, 2012 when they slimmed down the curve? Which even then was a minor facelift of the 2007 design at best, which itself was an aluminum facelift. Before then we had new iMac designs every few years, between the G3 in '98, the G4 in '02, and the G5 settling on the current form factor in '04.
  - liability 6y ago
    Why?
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    Why? That wouldn't work. You don't win changes by meekly arguing over things.
- judge2020 6y ago
  That's exactly what they're fighting. Surely Epic winning will mean a court order to reinstate Fortnite and other of Epic's games onto the App Store. They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing if they wanted to stay operational on Apple platforms during the lawsuit. Apple couldn't retaliate at that point since any termination attempt would be reversed by a court order.
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    > They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing If they did that, any court hearing the lawsuit would throw it out because Epic would not have standing. Epic had to do it this way to have any hope of a court hearing their case.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      They would only have no standing on the fact that you can't provide other payment methods in your app. They bring up many complaints in their lawsuit[0], mainly there being no competing app store for iOS and 30% being 10x the 3% most regular payment processors charge for processing and fraud detection. I (and you) obviously can't say whether or not the case would be thrown out in a different situation since it didn't happen, but I don't see why it would be thrown out since both of those points seems fair for a antitrust lawsuit, and 30% of sales is enough to mean millions in potential damages. 0: https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf
    - nodamage 6y ago
      Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has collected.
  - HideousKojima 6y ago
    >They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing if they wanted to stay operational on Apple platforms during the lawsuit. That would have made the chances of the lawsuit being thrown out over BS standing issues much higher
- pbalau 6y ago
  You should never fight the law, you should fight to change the law.
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    "I Fought The Law and the Law Won" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s
ilogik 6y ago
the whole point Epic is trying to make is that the rules are illegal, as they are anti-competitive
tyingq 6y ago
They broke the TOS for the App Store. Did they break the TOS for "Sign in with Apple"?
- danesparza 6y ago
  It's not clear that there are any specific legal TOS for 'Sign in with Apple': https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/resources/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/resources/
jl6 6y ago
It’s OK to insist on players sticking to the rules, but Apple is no longer a player - it’s the game.
tln 6y ago
They broke a guideline on purpose. Apple responded by removing from the app store. That's normal. Apple's other actions are just retaliatory: threatening the unreal engine, terminating developer accounts from affiliates, and yanking Apple login. It's those actions that you shouldn't expect.
- danesparza 6y ago
  I disagree. I think Epic Games and the affiliates didn't think through the ramifications for the actions taken by Epic Games. Epic Games is free to build their own phone and app store platform. There is nothing stopping them. Other than the risk that people don't want to buy into whatever they build. But Apple had the same risks. If this is truly a good faith negotiation (and not a stunt) on the part of Epic Games, they need to understand they're just losing the negotiation -- that's all. Business is business. Epic Games is just bad at it.
  - IncRnd 6y ago
    Epic isn't negotiating with Apple. They are suing Apple.
    - munificent 6y ago
      To a sociologist, lawsuits are simply another form of negotiation.
      - mcv 6y ago
        They often are; many get settled out of court.
      - nafey 6y ago
        Qualitatively different. Apple's cant risk looking weak here because this issue went to court. Epic could have had an out of court settlement with much better terms.
        6y ago
CydeWeys 6y ago
Why do people show Apple's ToS so much deference but then (rightfully) shit on all other ToSes by other people? ToSes suck. Most people don't even read them. I'm sure big companies like Epic have lawyers that do actually read them, but still, it's not like you have a choice in the matter. You can't just not publish on the biggest mobile market. The ToS isn't a negotiation, it's just a big monopoly owner exerting their will over others.
- smachiz 6y ago
  That's always true though - what you're saying is "I don't like that some entities are more powerful than other entities". Even at much smaller scale, you may need someone more than they need you, and they will negotiate like it - for legal and commercial terms. Also, terms of service are usually negotiable - presuming you're worth negotiating with. GE has no problem negotiating with Google - you as an individual might have to take what their standard is.
- ksk 6y ago
  That is exactly right. Comcast's TOS allows them to discriminate on internet traffic. Maybe Comcast can even make a twisted argument that its in the user's best interest. I'm sure nobody here wants them to do that. We already fight against things that we find unethical, or against our principles. This is no different. Whats being asked isn't some massive change to their software. Its freedom for the developer and user to have a choice in payment platforms. As much as Apple tries to obfuscate it, the AppStore is not the kernel, its not the graphics layer, its not the file system, its not something that is needed to run software. The other OS components are already being abstracted away to some extent by cross-platform tooling, and the AppStore is way way easier than those. On one hand, Apple will never take legal responsibility to audit software on their App Store and certify it free from malware, because doing so will be cost prohibitive and/or impossible. But at the same time, they want to claim its this 'utopia' that will get destroyed if users are allowed the freedom to pick a different store. How about you let us decide that?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Fnoord 6y ago
The law is above ToS. If you believe ToS are unlawful, then you breaking them might be lawful (to be decided).

foota 6y ago

I believe epic's point is that they believe the ToS to be illegal.

thdrdt 6y ago
Then they should first fight it before breaking it.
- xmprt 6y ago
  You can't sue someone unless you can prove damages. There's no way to fight this without breaking the rule first. I'm not a lawyer though so maybe there's an exception to this rule.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    NAL but you can sue without breaking contract if you're challenging the contract's legality. Epic also is generally challenging Apple's use of their position to 1) not allow other app stores, and 2) take 30% of each sale (while other processors take 3%), which would be enough damages to sue over. Epic breaking contract is entirely a PR move.
    - manicdee 6y ago
      An App Store is not a payment processor. How much of a cut is Steam taking when you sell software on their store? How much of a cut will Epic be taking when you sell software on their store? This is completely different to how much Mastercard charges you for selling stuff from your store.
  - giovannibajo1 6y ago
    They have proved that, already. They could have reverted the direct payment system, kept only Apple IAP, and then sued even for damage recovery of 30% since the beginning of the lawsuit (or even the beginning of Fortnite on iOS). Apple has clearly written even in legal documents of the lawsuit that reverting the direct payment change would have been enough to keep operating Fortnite on iOS fully featured.
  - nodamage 6y ago
    I'm not sure why people keep repeating this. Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million that Apple has collected in Fortnite IAP fees.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Would they have standing if they weren't punished for violating the TOS?
- gorkish 6y ago
  Sure they could; but I find it kind of hard to criticize their strategy of getting a hundred million people to commiserate with them before they try. Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it; they must be over the moon. I've owned and used Apple products continuously for over 30 years, and I'm not ashamed to say that I am rooting HARD for Epic on this. Apple doesn't give a shit about innovation when they are making money hand over fist. They are spending all their time nurturing their cash cow. It's time to butcher that motherfucker.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > Even better that Apple has decided to act like a big ugly baby about it You mean, Apple, like any grown-up company would do in their place, has rightfully shown Epic the door? Google kicked Fortnite from Play Store for the same reason. And had they tried this against consoles (where devs also pay 30%), they'd be kicked out of the respective console forever. What's a "non-cry-baby" reaction in your opinion?
    - viraptor 6y ago
      Blocking the new release and blocking the version which allowed out of ecosystem payments. That's it. It's not like Apple gains anything from further actions.
      - dmitriid 6y ago
        Further actions, unless I'm mistaken, are the direct application of TOS. Epic kept on pushing updates to Fortnite that violated TOS. Your dev account will be disabled if you keep violating TOS. Epic hoped for preferential treatment just because they are big, and they've enjoyed preferential treatment on consoles. hey've run into Apple applying their TOS equally to everybody and are now somehow pissed.
  - FractalParadigm 6y ago
    > Apple doesn't give a shit about innovation when they are making money hand over fist It's crazy but I didn't even notice this paradigm shift until they announced their credit card. Apple used to be the company to push boundaries and revolutionize computing in some way every few years. The last real "innovation" I feel Apple has come up with was the Retina display, pushing OEMs everywhere towards higher pixel counts and better overall user experiences. Before that we got everything from the iPhone and iPod and even iTunes, to USB and WiFi brought to the mainstream, to crazy, beautiful designs that worked well, like the iMac G4. Just for instance working off local memory, The iMac hasn't seen a form factor update since what, 2012 when they slimmed down the curve? Which even then was a minor facelift of the 2007 design at best, which itself was an aluminum facelift. Before then we had new iMac designs every few years, between the G3 in '98, the G4 in '02, and the G5 settling on the current form factor in '04.
- liability 6y ago
  Why?
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Why? That wouldn't work. You don't win changes by meekly arguing over things.
judge2020 6y ago
That's exactly what they're fighting. Surely Epic winning will mean a court order to reinstate Fortnite and other of Epic's games onto the App Store. They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing if they wanted to stay operational on Apple platforms during the lawsuit. Apple couldn't retaliate at that point since any termination attempt would be reversed by a court order.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  > They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing If they did that, any court hearing the lawsuit would throw it out because Epic would not have standing. Epic had to do it this way to have any hope of a court hearing their case.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    They would only have no standing on the fact that you can't provide other payment methods in your app. They bring up many complaints in their lawsuit[0], mainly there being no competing app store for iOS and 30% being 10x the 3% most regular payment processors charge for processing and fraud detection. I (and you) obviously can't say whether or not the case would be thrown out in a different situation since it didn't happen, but I don't see why it would be thrown out since both of those points seems fair for a antitrust lawsuit, and 30% of sales is enough to mean millions in potential damages. 0: https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf
  - nodamage 6y ago
    Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has collected.
- HideousKojima 6y ago
  >They should have sued and never have done their "pay direct" thing if they wanted to stay operational on Apple platforms during the lawsuit. That would have made the chances of the lawsuit being thrown out over BS standing issues much higher
pbalau 6y ago
You should never fight the law, you should fight to change the law.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  "I Fought The Law and the Law Won" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s

ilogik 6y ago

the whole point Epic is trying to make is that the rules are illegal, as they are anti-competitive

tyingq 6y ago

They broke the TOS for the App Store. Did they break the TOS for "Sign in with Apple"?

danesparza 6y ago
It's not clear that there are any specific legal TOS for 'Sign in with Apple': https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/resources/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/resources/

jl6 6y ago

It’s OK to insist on players sticking to the rules, but Apple is no longer a player - it’s the game.

tln 6y ago

They broke a guideline on purpose. Apple responded by removing from the app store. That's normal. Apple's other actions are just retaliatory: threatening the unreal engine, terminating developer accounts from affiliates, and yanking Apple login. It's those actions that you shouldn't expect.

danesparza 6y ago
I disagree. I think Epic Games and the affiliates didn't think through the ramifications for the actions taken by Epic Games. Epic Games is free to build their own phone and app store platform. There is nothing stopping them. Other than the risk that people don't want to buy into whatever they build. But Apple had the same risks. If this is truly a good faith negotiation (and not a stunt) on the part of Epic Games, they need to understand they're just losing the negotiation -- that's all. Business is business. Epic Games is just bad at it.
- IncRnd 6y ago
  Epic isn't negotiating with Apple. They are suing Apple.
  - munificent 6y ago
    To a sociologist, lawsuits are simply another form of negotiation.
    - mcv 6y ago
      They often are; many get settled out of court.
    - nafey 6y ago
      Qualitatively different. Apple's cant risk looking weak here because this issue went to court. Epic could have had an out of court settlement with much better terms.
      - 6y ago

CydeWeys 6y ago

Why do people show Apple's ToS so much deference but then (rightfully) shit on all other ToSes by other people? ToSes suck. Most people don't even read them. I'm sure big companies like Epic have lawyers that do actually read them, but still, it's not like you have a choice in the matter. You can't just not publish on the biggest mobile market. The ToS isn't a negotiation, it's just a big monopoly owner exerting their will over others.

smachiz 6y ago
That's always true though - what you're saying is "I don't like that some entities are more powerful than other entities". Even at much smaller scale, you may need someone more than they need you, and they will negotiate like it - for legal and commercial terms. Also, terms of service are usually negotiable - presuming you're worth negotiating with. GE has no problem negotiating with Google - you as an individual might have to take what their standard is.
ksk 6y ago
That is exactly right. Comcast's TOS allows them to discriminate on internet traffic. Maybe Comcast can even make a twisted argument that its in the user's best interest. I'm sure nobody here wants them to do that. We already fight against things that we find unethical, or against our principles. This is no different. Whats being asked isn't some massive change to their software. Its freedom for the developer and user to have a choice in payment platforms. As much as Apple tries to obfuscate it, the AppStore is not the kernel, its not the graphics layer, its not the file system, its not something that is needed to run software. The other OS components are already being abstracted away to some extent by cross-platform tooling, and the AppStore is way way easier than those. On one hand, Apple will never take legal responsibility to audit software on their App Store and certify it free from malware, because doing so will be cost prohibitive and/or impossible. But at the same time, they want to claim its this 'utopia' that will get destroyed if users are allowed the freedom to pick a different store. How about you let us decide that?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Fnoord 6y ago

The law is above ToS. If you believe ToS are unlawful, then you breaking them might be lawful (to be decided).