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> Ah yes, the lofty government subsidy of x < $600 on average per family that has enough taxable income to receive the CDCTC (x < $100 all families with childre

> Ah yes, the lofty government subsidy of x < $600 on average per family that has enough taxable income to receive the CDCTC (x < $100 all families with children)[0]. You chose one particularly inexpensive subsidy, and ignored everything else. 200 days/year of free childcare is not free. Maternity/paternity leave is coming out of someone's pocket. Many social programs are heavily skewed towards children (SNAP participants are around 1/2 children, despite them only being 1/4 of the population, for example). I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things - modern society makes having children expensive, and it's obviously best for all of us if we ensure some base level of care for them. But we don't have to pretend it isn't happening.

smeeth 6y ago
Yeah, that was a conscious choice of mine. I adhere to a narrower definition of what a subsidy is than you do: a benefit conferred by government to promote a specific behavior. In the case of SNAP I think you've confused secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy with a subsidy itself. In the case of education, I think you've confused an externality of an investment in education with a subsidy. I'm not sure you can even consider maternity/paternity leave a government subsidy considering what federal law exists for leave is unpaid (maybe if you consider the continuation of healthcare benefits?). I can see how some would think I'm splitting hairs here. Taken to its logical conclusion, I could argue with your broad definition that just about any subsidy or tax on anything is also a subsidy or tax on raising children. E.g. families have more cell phones and higher cell phone bills, so taxes on cell phone bills are also taxes on having children. Gas taxes are a tax on extracurricular activities for your kids. That's a little much for me, I prefer to call them what they are, secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy or tax.
- thedufer 6y ago
  > Taken to its logical conclusion, I could argue with your broad definition that just about any subsidy or tax on anything is also a subsidy or tax on raising children. E.g. families have more cell phones and higher cell phone bills, so taxes on cell phone bills are also taxes on having children. Gas taxes are a tax on extracurricular activities for your kids. That's a little much for me, I prefer to call them what they are, secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy or tax. I can't see this as anything other than a deliberate misrepresentation of my stance. In the SNAP case, the key point is not that children benefit from it, it's that children benefit to an enormously out-sized degree - they're over-represented by a full 100%. I pretty deliberately did not say the words you're putting in my mouth - any tax or subsidy that affects children to an approximately equivalent degree as others are obviously not related to this discussion. As to the education bit, I don't see why the reason we're spending a ton of money subsidizing children affects whether we're subsidizing children - which education very clearly does. You can wave away any subsidy that way, if you so choose.

smeeth 6y ago

Yeah, that was a conscious choice of mine. I adhere to a narrower definition of what a subsidy is than you do: a benefit conferred by government to promote a specific behavior. In the case of SNAP I think you've confused secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy with a subsidy itself. In the case of education, I think you've confused an externality of an investment in education with a subsidy. I'm not sure you can even consider maternity/paternity leave a government subsidy considering what federal law exists for leave is unpaid (maybe if you consider the continuation of healthcare benefits?). I can see how some would think I'm splitting hairs here. Taken to its logical conclusion, I could argue with your broad definition that just about any subsidy or tax on anything is also a subsidy or tax on raising children. E.g. families have more cell phones and higher cell phone bills, so taxes on cell phone bills are also taxes on having children. Gas taxes are a tax on extracurricular activities for your kids. That's a little much for me, I prefer to call them what they are, secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy or tax.

thedufer 6y ago
> Taken to its logical conclusion, I could argue with your broad definition that just about any subsidy or tax on anything is also a subsidy or tax on raising children. E.g. families have more cell phones and higher cell phone bills, so taxes on cell phone bills are also taxes on having children. Gas taxes are a tax on extracurricular activities for your kids. That's a little much for me, I prefer to call them what they are, secondary/tertiary effects of a subsidy or tax. I can't see this as anything other than a deliberate misrepresentation of my stance. In the SNAP case, the key point is not that children benefit from it, it's that children benefit to an enormously out-sized degree - they're over-represented by a full 100%. I pretty deliberately did not say the words you're putting in my mouth - any tax or subsidy that affects children to an approximately equivalent degree as others are obviously not related to this discussion. As to the education bit, I don't see why the reason we're spending a ton of money subsidizing children affects whether we're subsidizing children - which education very clearly does. You can wave away any subsidy that way, if you so choose.