8 ms·

University to remove murals commemorating WWII veterans for lack of diversity

14 points by rbecker 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago
Eh. How will they preserve the paintings? Or are they going to destroy it? What's the difference from Islamic State burning art that "wasn't representative of them today"? Should we take down Egyptian pyramids too, since slaves built them and that's not what we are today? Hopefully this dumb ideology won't get out of the USA. I feel sad for the Americans of yesterday, though, I can't imagine such disrespect to their work here in Europe.
- jkinudsjknds 6y ago
  The difference is that the Islamic State is destroying these things and sending a message that it must be destroyed. The Americans are saying "we don't want this art to represent us anymore". It's improbable that the art will be destroyed, and if it is, it'll be for practical constraints not a public display of aggression. Europe tends not to have equivalent problems. But I'd imagine if you had a series of works in public display that told the story of how the Americans came over and won the war while the pathetic European allies just did nothing you'd probably protest, because that's kind of bullshit. Taking down a celebration of white soldiers doesn't mean you don't respect them. It might just mean your views of the situation have changed in a way that requires a different work. To say you "cannot imagine a disrespect to their work"... well yeah you can. It's the exact situation that the black soldiers were in. It's like complaining about the unfairness of rising food prices while the family down the lane already had food insecurity. Arguing to maintain the status quo, which is inherently unfair, on a basis of unfairness towards the privileged group is the entire point of trying to unpack structural systemic problems. We don't need to claim that a painting of white soldiers is made with racist intentions. It's likely not. But we can take proactive steps to change how we portray ourselves going forward. This is but one of many instances of people having gut reactions to racial relations. People are happy to say they are not racist (and they aren't) and are happy to say they think people of minority groups should be treated with equal respect (and they do think this). But when confronted with the reality that historic structural systems have shifted power, culture, and wealth to one side- they have a gut negative reaction against actually changing the systems to create more equal outcomes. Reducing racial inequality means changing cultural norms, weakening the historic gravy train of white real estate ownership, and transferring political power from white communities to black communities (and others). The hatred of the KKK causes an insignificant amount of harm to the black community relative to regressive housing policies born out of longstanding traditions of keeping property ownership a thing of the whites. Unconscious biases at the office are not as pertinent as the public thinking on cultural heritage.
- mcphage 6y ago
  > Should we take down Egyptian pyramids too, since slaves built them I'm pretty sure that's not true. > I feel sad for the Americans of yesterday, though, I can't imagine such disrespect to their work here in Europe. The white Americans of yesterday used to get upset when a black person used their water fountain, or got a better seat on a bus, so it's not like they refrained from weaponized outrage.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    > so it's not like they refrained from weaponized outrage at least you're admitting the stuff now is disingenuous and strategic
    - mcphage 6y ago
      > at least you're admitting the stuff now is disingenuous and strategic Strategic, absolutely. And—in this particular case at least—pretty stupid. But I'm more interested in the aim; it's no longer about keeping minorities down.
emerged 6y ago
I'm glad WWII vets aren't alive to witness this disgrace that has been created during the peace they fought to create. But they are rolling over in their graves.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  Meanwhile the article cites one of those veterans in the interest of balance: 'Yet, the man responsible for the paintings, Arthur Sherman, seems somewhat optimistic about the decision. When asked about the removal of his murals, Sherman responded, "That’s a good question. Time goes by and things change."'
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The article does point out that the murals may be accurate: > "It's important to note that Blacks and other servicemen of color returning to the states during that time were prohibited from taking advantage of the GI Bill, despite that being a promise to them at discharge." It also looks like the services wouldn't desegregate until at least Korea, or even the mid-1960s: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 - https://web.archive.org/web/20100723014433/http://www.history.army.mil/books/integration/IAF-24.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20100723014433/http://www.histor... > "Originally a follower of civilian society in racial matters, the armed forces moved ahead in the 1950's and by the mid-1960's had become a powerful stimulus for change in civilian practices in some areas of the country." more of the same at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24333207 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24333207
    - rbecker 6y ago
      The US was also 90% white at the time [1], so one shouldn't be surprised murals would be "predominantly white", even if it wasn't for segregation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...
      - 6y ago
just-juan-post 6y ago
> > “Some of our students have even shared with us they didn’t feel comfortable sitting in that space.” Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to keep the paying customers, don't ya?
CompanionCuuube 6y ago
So would this university take down a mural of the 442nd Infantry Regiment too, for not being diverse enough? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(Unite... "The unit earned more than 18,000 awards in less than two years, including 9,486 Purple Hearts and 4,000 Bronze Star Medals. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[6] Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[3] In 2010, Congress approved the granting of the Congressional Gold Medal to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and associated units who served during World War II,[7] and in 2012, all surviving members were made chevaliers of the French Légion d'Honneur for their actions contributing to the liberation of France and their heroic rescue of the Lost Battalion.[8]"

14 points by rbecker 6y ago

Eh. How will they preserve the paintings? Or are they going to destroy it? What's the difference from Islamic State burning art that "wasn't representative of them today"? Should we take down Egyptian pyramids too, since slaves built them and that's not what we are today? Hopefully this dumb ideology won't get out of the USA. I feel sad for the Americans of yesterday, though, I can't imagine such disrespect to their work here in Europe.

jkinudsjknds 6y ago
The difference is that the Islamic State is destroying these things and sending a message that it must be destroyed. The Americans are saying "we don't want this art to represent us anymore". It's improbable that the art will be destroyed, and if it is, it'll be for practical constraints not a public display of aggression. Europe tends not to have equivalent problems. But I'd imagine if you had a series of works in public display that told the story of how the Americans came over and won the war while the pathetic European allies just did nothing you'd probably protest, because that's kind of bullshit. Taking down a celebration of white soldiers doesn't mean you don't respect them. It might just mean your views of the situation have changed in a way that requires a different work. To say you "cannot imagine a disrespect to their work"... well yeah you can. It's the exact situation that the black soldiers were in. It's like complaining about the unfairness of rising food prices while the family down the lane already had food insecurity. Arguing to maintain the status quo, which is inherently unfair, on a basis of unfairness towards the privileged group is the entire point of trying to unpack structural systemic problems. We don't need to claim that a painting of white soldiers is made with racist intentions. It's likely not. But we can take proactive steps to change how we portray ourselves going forward. This is but one of many instances of people having gut reactions to racial relations. People are happy to say they are not racist (and they aren't) and are happy to say they think people of minority groups should be treated with equal respect (and they do think this). But when confronted with the reality that historic structural systems have shifted power, culture, and wealth to one side- they have a gut negative reaction against actually changing the systems to create more equal outcomes. Reducing racial inequality means changing cultural norms, weakening the historic gravy train of white real estate ownership, and transferring political power from white communities to black communities (and others). The hatred of the KKK causes an insignificant amount of harm to the black community relative to regressive housing policies born out of longstanding traditions of keeping property ownership a thing of the whites. Unconscious biases at the office are not as pertinent as the public thinking on cultural heritage.
mcphage 6y ago
> Should we take down Egyptian pyramids too, since slaves built them I'm pretty sure that's not true. > I feel sad for the Americans of yesterday, though, I can't imagine such disrespect to their work here in Europe. The white Americans of yesterday used to get upset when a black person used their water fountain, or got a better seat on a bus, so it's not like they refrained from weaponized outrage.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > so it's not like they refrained from weaponized outrage at least you're admitting the stuff now is disingenuous and strategic
  - mcphage 6y ago
    > at least you're admitting the stuff now is disingenuous and strategic Strategic, absolutely. And—in this particular case at least—pretty stupid. But I'm more interested in the aim; it's no longer about keeping minorities down.

emerged 6y ago

I'm glad WWII vets aren't alive to witness this disgrace that has been created during the peace they fought to create. But they are rolling over in their graves.

HarryHirsch 6y ago
Meanwhile the article cites one of those veterans in the interest of balance: 'Yet, the man responsible for the paintings, Arthur Sherman, seems somewhat optimistic about the decision. When asked about the removal of his murals, Sherman responded, "That’s a good question. Time goes by and things change."'
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  The article does point out that the murals may be accurate: > "It's important to note that Blacks and other servicemen of color returning to the states during that time were prohibited from taking advantage of the GI Bill, despite that being a promise to them at discharge." It also looks like the services wouldn't desegregate until at least Korea, or even the mid-1960s: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9981 - https://web.archive.org/web/20100723014433/http://www.history.army.mil/books/integration/IAF-24.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20100723014433/http://www.histor... > "Originally a follower of civilian society in racial matters, the armed forces moved ahead in the 1950's and by the mid-1960's had become a powerful stimulus for change in civilian practices in some areas of the country." more of the same at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24333207 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24333207
  - rbecker 6y ago
    The US was also 90% white at the time [1], so one shouldn't be surprised murals would be "predominantly white", even if it wasn't for segregation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...
    - 6y ago

just-juan-post 6y ago

> > “Some of our students have even shared with us they didn’t feel comfortable sitting in that space.” Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to keep the paying customers, don't ya?

CompanionCuuube 6y ago

So would this university take down a mural of the 442nd Infantry Regiment too, for not being diverse enough? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(Unite... "The unit earned more than 18,000 awards in less than two years, including 9,486 Purple Hearts and 4,000 Bronze Star Medals. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[6] Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[3] In 2010, Congress approved the granting of the Congressional Gold Medal to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team and associated units who served during World War II,[7] and in 2012, all surviving members were made chevaliers of the French Légion d'Honneur for their actions contributing to the liberation of France and their heroic rescue of the Lost Battalion.[8]"