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> I am not a religion apologists, but his videos and lectures are structured exactly the same way as sermons. He even feigns a false pastor modesty I highly re
by paganel 6y ago
> I am not a religion apologists, but his videos and lectures are structured exactly the same way as sermons. He even feigns a false pastor modesty
I highly recommend Jacques Ellul's "Les nouveaux possédés." (translated in English as "The New Demons" [1]) an analysis written back in 1973 describing this exact process you're describing, i.e. modern stuff (rock stars among others) trying to fill the hole of the disappearing religion. Ever since I've read the book I cannot attend a big music concert or a crowded football match without thinking about it (before this pandemic started, of course).
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1362676.The_New_Demons https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1362676.The_New_Demons
- andi999 6y agoNowadays I am thinking that the 'we are more popular than jesus' quote is actually deeper than it was probably intended.
- arvinsim 6y agoSport is not so much a modern relaxation as a new religion; and is more serious and unsmiling even than most new religions. - G. K. Chesterton
- rgoulter 6y ago"Sports is to war as pornography is to sex." — Jonathan Haidt
- Cro_on 6y agoExcept that the universal adoption of sports would result in a net positive. The same cannot be said for pornography. Also it makes just as much sense like this: 'sports is to sex as pornography is to war.'
- RugnirViking 6y agoPresumably that is because war is bad and sex is not bad?
- shoes_for_thee 6y agoIt's easy to miss the point of any analogy if you try hard enough.
- edgarvaldes 6y agoI think it referes to the spectactle aspect of sports
- webmaven 6y ago> Except that the universal adoption of sports would result in a net positive. The same cannot be said for pornography. By adoption of sports, do you mean universal participation or spectation? The former I suppose would be a net positive, if you limit the requirement to just making sure everyone does at least some physical activity every day, but if you mean that everyone should be required to play some sport as a significant pastime the negatives start reducing the net positive. If the latter, I must vehemently disagree. We would probably be better off banning spectator sports entirely rather than making everyone watch.
- Cro_on 6y agoJust a quick way to say that I think a little exercise goes a long way :)
- arethuza 6y agoNot sure it is that new - Constantinople had feuding groups who supported different chariot racing teams. As a Scot I can't help be amused that the greatest rivalry was between the Blues and Greens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Firm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Firm
- idolaspecus 6y agoI can’t help but take this chance to recommend Guy Gavriel Kay’s Sailing to Sarantium. It’s an absolute masterpiece of a novel set in Byzantium just after the Nika Riots; the chariot races and Blue/Green dynamic play a big role in the plot. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/104097.Sailing_to_Sarantium https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/104097.Sailing_to_Sarant...
- arethuza 6y agoI can recommend Istanbul: A Tale of Three Cities by Bettany Hughes: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22711736-istanbul https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22711736-istanbul
- ideamotor 6y agoThat’s interesting, I’ll check it out. I often tell folks that without concerts I am going on without my religion. And the best concerts are those where the most attendees most actively participate. This human need for group belonging will be fulfilled one way or another. Concerts, sports, protests, war - go on down the line (granted I think churches fit in further towards the end ...). There is a psychological cost to shutting these events down that must also be considered.
- playingchanges 6y agoThanks for that, very interesting topic. But surely large sporting events have existed alongside large religion for some thousands of years (Roman events are the obvious example). Perhaps both trying to get at the same thing but not being that thing themselves.
- dominotw 6y ago> Jacques Ellul doesn't seem to fit gp's "people who have done something" crietia.
- paganel 6y agoThis is a cheap shot at Ellul, as he has been proved more right than wrong even though he was writing about technology and our technological society since the 1960s-1970s (a very difficult thing to achieve, being right on technology, that is). As such, I personally think that he has “done” a lot more compared to other people, witness how even FB multi-millionaires have started following him and his ideas (knowingly or unknowingly).
- dominotw 6y ago> This is a cheap shot at Ellul, No i was questioning GP's point. Nothing to do with Ellul. I personally don't care if the author has "done something"
- WaltPurvis 6y agoOdd comment, given that aside from writing a few ephemeral books and engaging in a ton of pontificating, the only thing Taleb has ever done in his life is move money around on computers for the sole purpose of enriching himself, while Ellul was active in the French Resistance and was honored for his actions to save Jews from the Nazis. I guess it depends on what one means by "doing something."
- sifar 6y agoEllul, I would like to think, is someone who came back from the Abyss without losing himself. Preserving once sanity while reading him is difficult enough, imagine what you would have to go through while you think through these things for years.
- jaaron 6y agoI was raised in a highly devout religious environment. I was a true believer myself. One of the more remarkable experiences of my early adult life was attending a sales conference. I couldn't believe how much that business event felt like a _religious_ event to me. The format, the language, the emotions... I recognized all of these. I'm no longer religious in the same way, but those experiences have made me particularly sensitive the power of faith and community. Once you know what you're looking for, you start to see it everywhere: in businesses, in politics, in fandom. People want belonging and a sense of being part of something greater than themselves. Belief in the supernatural is not required to engender that feeling.
- tomxor 6y ago> People want belonging and a sense of being part of something greater than themselves. Belief in the supernatural is not required to engender that feeling. I agree, but feel like this is a not a bad thing most of the time (even though it can be), and I say this as an atheist in the traditional sense, with iconoclastic tendencies when provoked...
- novok 6y agoThe problem, is the same faults of religious movements happen with these religions-without-the-supernatural, but as an atheist you don't have the same supernatural to mock as a defense. You see faith based reasoning and very strong emotional reactions to things that are not real.
- tomxor 6y agoOn second thought you are right, there is a lot of faith base nonsense going on, especially post-facebook.
- BurningFrog 6y agoYou can also think of it as religious events are a lot like sales conferences.
- mercer 6y ago