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> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companie

> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companies think it's a good idea to ship a crappy "launcher" that needs to run on startup, taking up resources in the background while providing little to no added functionality. We can see that with PC games; it used to be just Steam, but now there's the Epic Games Launcher, Origin, GoG, and a bunch of more obscure launchers that need to be installed to play particular games.

vbezhenar 6y ago
If you don't like their launchers, don't use their apps, it's simple as that. They're free to create a software in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not to use that software.
- DonaldPShimoda 6y ago
  If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone, it's simple as that. They're free to manage their platform in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not use that platform. --- I'm not necessarily saying I think Apple is in the right, but your argument doesn't hold because it works equally well when applied at a higher level, which runs counter to your point.
  - canofbars 6y ago
    >If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding. A real world example of this is vape companies provide an app which lets you do things like lock your vape so kids can't use it. Apple said those apps are not allowed on the app store. The vape company has no options, they just can't sell products to apple users now. The problem is these tech companies hold way to much power. It would be like if 2 landlords owned literally every single block of land in the entire country. Now normally it would be fair for the landlord to pick which types of businesses to rent out to but when both options say your business isn't accepted and the only alternative is to build your own island in the ocean and create a civilisation on it so you can open your store then something is seriously wrong.
    - jbverschoor 6y ago
      Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.
      - tasssko 6y ago
        I couldn't agree more. It will only get worse if companies are allowed to create their own Appstores. Using these devices is already a difficult user experience we should be doing more to protect consumers who have already invested in the ecosystem. Apple is indirectly doing this.
      - vbezhenar 6y ago
        So you're happy as a consumer that developer's freedom is taken away from them, but you have more freedom. That's understandable, but you should realize that some developers value their freedom and will just avoid such a locked-down platform. There are plenty of apps missing in iPhone because of that.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Developers are free to target other platforms, some of them are doing PlayStation exclusives.
        yazaddaruvala 6y ago
        Good! As an iPhone user, I’ll wait for the app to become popular enough that Apple correctly integrates it. Case and point, Swipe keyboards. It was the biggest missing feature for three years when I moved from Android to iPhone. I still preferred my iPhone!
        jbverschoor 6y ago
        There’s no need to have access to things I don’t want them to. There is no need for them to ask for my payment information in a way that can be fraudulent. There are many reasons for them why they’d want to reduce subscription cancellation and other dark patterns. There is no reason for them to be able to install anything, or run arbitrary code on my device. If epic wants to do business with me, they can go through my secretary/lawyer/firewall (Apple). I’m more than 10x likely to spend money on apps, so I think that more than evens it out. Which apps are missing? I’m so t see any added value in another AppStore. Heck, I’d love for Apple to lockdown OS X so that adobe’s store/updater is banned. Wishful thinking
- Lev1a 6y ago
  That's not so simple with the hypocrite named Epic who preach about competition being better for all while buying exclusive distribution rights from devs/publishers on PC, sometimes even for games that had been long announced to be coming out on Steam and/or were crowdfunded on that and other premises. Case in point: "Satisfactory". I was pretty excited about the game when it was first shown, then found later * it would be removed from Steam, * I'd have to get an account for another store, * use a store made by some incompetents who couldn't implement basic functionality like a "shopping cart" even months after release (does it have one by now?) * give part of my money through Epic to fucking Tencent and install a piece of Chinese spyware on my PC in order to run it. Also no implicit Linux support because no Proton and because Sweeney loves to bend over for Microsoft exclusively.
  - jfim 6y ago
    You can buy it on Steam now: https://store.steampowered.com/app/526870/Satisfactory/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/526870/Satisfactory/
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      Sure, years later. Compare to Iron Harvest, for example. You could invest in the development via Kickstarter. Which boils down to making the project happen (due to lack of otherwise investors aka due to crowdfunding). Now, basically right after release, you can buy the game from Steam, too, but you pay full price for it (in contrast to the crowdfunders). Contrast this to EGS. Stuff gets released on Steam many months later, say 6 months or a year, due to EGS getting the sack of money for being the sole distributor. Then, they release for full price on Steam. Why would I pay full price for a 6-12 month old game? I won't.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        A recent example of Epic exclusives was Borderlands 3. It was highly anticipated, and then it came out that it would be exclusive to EGS for 6 months. I refuse to use EGS (for my own reasons), so when the hype died down after a few months and it arrived on Steam, I forgot to buy it. In fact, I still keep forgetting.
simion314 6y ago
And this is a good thing, competition between this stores is good for the users, some users got free games, some developers got better deals. The "needs to launch on startup" is FALSE , you can have this launchers set no to start at all and you launch the game and the launcher will start if needed (not all Steam games need Steam in background). FYI GOG launcher is optional, you can just download the game from the website with a browser and then install it as in old times. Competition is good and except the Epic drama I did not see anyone complaining the GOG, HumbleBundle, itch.io or downloading from Patreon is a bad thing for PC. I expect though if Apple blocks all launchers on the new OSX for ARM then an army of people will say that downloading a small game directly from Patron is too complicated and insecure for the average Apple user mind.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  If I want a store competition I go to shopping mall. The only store that has a place on my devices is the OS vendor store.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    No one's stopping you from using only Apple store. Why force your choice on other consumers? Let people decide what's best for them
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      They have the choice to buy other brands.
      - dr_dshiv 6y ago
        They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission
        6y ago
rhn_mk1 6y ago
The GoG launcher doesn't fit here as an example; it's entirely optional.
- Crosseye_Jack 6y ago
  Unless you want to play online. Some of the titles on the store allow peer to peer connection multiplayer which doesn’t have any drm checks. But most titles that use servers to simplify matchmaking or connection with other players have a check that validates that gog galaxy is logged into an account that has purchased the game.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  No, GoG Galaxy is not entirely optional. It is required to run many newer games, and can be required even if you're not trying to play multiplayer. I don't understand how this is supposed to be compatible with GoG's marketing as "the DRM-free home for games".
  - speeder 6y ago
    What game requires GoG Galaxy? EDIT: even googled it, found out Darkest Dungeon by default install a version that does need GoG Galaxy, but the DRM-free version is available on GoG site too, just need to choose that downloader instead. But that was it. Didn't found any other obvious complaints of GoG Galaxy being required.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      Northgard requires Galaxy for single-player content. It's not subtle about it. Your response says more about what you can tell with a quick google search than anything else. I'm fascinated that I've been complaining about this here on HN for months, and the only response I ever get -- which comes up every time -- is "what are you talking about, that's not true". This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not even difficult to check. And yet, there are so many people whose worldview apparently rests on the opposite of the facts.

vbezhenar 6y ago

If you don't like their launchers, don't use their apps, it's simple as that. They're free to create a software in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not to use that software.

DonaldPShimoda 6y ago
If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone, it's simple as that. They're free to manage their platform in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not use that platform. --- I'm not necessarily saying I think Apple is in the right, but your argument doesn't hold because it works equally well when applied at a higher level, which runs counter to your point.
- canofbars 6y ago
  >If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding. A real world example of this is vape companies provide an app which lets you do things like lock your vape so kids can't use it. Apple said those apps are not allowed on the app store. The vape company has no options, they just can't sell products to apple users now. The problem is these tech companies hold way to much power. It would be like if 2 landlords owned literally every single block of land in the entire country. Now normally it would be fair for the landlord to pick which types of businesses to rent out to but when both options say your business isn't accepted and the only alternative is to build your own island in the ocean and create a civilisation on it so you can open your store then something is seriously wrong.
  - jbverschoor 6y ago
    Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.
    - tasssko 6y ago
      I couldn't agree more. It will only get worse if companies are allowed to create their own Appstores. Using these devices is already a difficult user experience we should be doing more to protect consumers who have already invested in the ecosystem. Apple is indirectly doing this.
    - vbezhenar 6y ago
      So you're happy as a consumer that developer's freedom is taken away from them, but you have more freedom. That's understandable, but you should realize that some developers value their freedom and will just avoid such a locked-down platform. There are plenty of apps missing in iPhone because of that.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Developers are free to target other platforms, some of them are doing PlayStation exclusives.
      - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
        Good! As an iPhone user, I’ll wait for the app to become popular enough that Apple correctly integrates it. Case and point, Swipe keyboards. It was the biggest missing feature for three years when I moved from Android to iPhone. I still preferred my iPhone!
      - jbverschoor 6y ago
        There’s no need to have access to things I don’t want them to. There is no need for them to ask for my payment information in a way that can be fraudulent. There are many reasons for them why they’d want to reduce subscription cancellation and other dark patterns. There is no reason for them to be able to install anything, or run arbitrary code on my device. If epic wants to do business with me, they can go through my secretary/lawyer/firewall (Apple). I’m more than 10x likely to spend money on apps, so I think that more than evens it out. Which apps are missing? I’m so t see any added value in another AppStore. Heck, I’d love for Apple to lockdown OS X so that adobe’s store/updater is banned. Wishful thinking
Lev1a 6y ago
That's not so simple with the hypocrite named Epic who preach about competition being better for all while buying exclusive distribution rights from devs/publishers on PC, sometimes even for games that had been long announced to be coming out on Steam and/or were crowdfunded on that and other premises. Case in point: "Satisfactory". I was pretty excited about the game when it was first shown, then found later * it would be removed from Steam, * I'd have to get an account for another store, * use a store made by some incompetents who couldn't implement basic functionality like a "shopping cart" even months after release (does it have one by now?) * give part of my money through Epic to fucking Tencent and install a piece of Chinese spyware on my PC in order to run it. Also no implicit Linux support because no Proton and because Sweeney loves to bend over for Microsoft exclusively.
- jfim 6y ago
  You can buy it on Steam now: https://store.steampowered.com/app/526870/Satisfactory/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/526870/Satisfactory/
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    Sure, years later. Compare to Iron Harvest, for example. You could invest in the development via Kickstarter. Which boils down to making the project happen (due to lack of otherwise investors aka due to crowdfunding). Now, basically right after release, you can buy the game from Steam, too, but you pay full price for it (in contrast to the crowdfunders). Contrast this to EGS. Stuff gets released on Steam many months later, say 6 months or a year, due to EGS getting the sack of money for being the sole distributor. Then, they release for full price on Steam. Why would I pay full price for a 6-12 month old game? I won't.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      A recent example of Epic exclusives was Borderlands 3. It was highly anticipated, and then it came out that it would be exclusive to EGS for 6 months. I refuse to use EGS (for my own reasons), so when the hype died down after a few months and it arrived on Steam, I forgot to buy it. In fact, I still keep forgetting.

simion314 6y ago

And this is a good thing, competition between this stores is good for the users, some users got free games, some developers got better deals. The "needs to launch on startup" is FALSE , you can have this launchers set no to start at all and you launch the game and the launcher will start if needed (not all Steam games need Steam in background). FYI GOG launcher is optional, you can just download the game from the website with a browser and then install it as in old times. Competition is good and except the Epic drama I did not see anyone complaining the GOG, HumbleBundle, itch.io or downloading from Patreon is a bad thing for PC. I expect though if Apple blocks all launchers on the new OSX for ARM then an army of people will say that downloading a small game directly from Patron is too complicated and insecure for the average Apple user mind.

pjmlp 6y ago
If I want a store competition I go to shopping mall. The only store that has a place on my devices is the OS vendor store.
- harpratap 6y ago
  No one's stopping you from using only Apple store. Why force your choice on other consumers? Let people decide what's best for them
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    They have the choice to buy other brands.
    - dr_dshiv 6y ago
      They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission
      - 6y ago

rhn_mk1 6y ago

The GoG launcher doesn't fit here as an example; it's entirely optional.

Crosseye_Jack 6y ago
Unless you want to play online. Some of the titles on the store allow peer to peer connection multiplayer which doesn’t have any drm checks. But most titles that use servers to simplify matchmaking or connection with other players have a check that validates that gog galaxy is logged into an account that has purchased the game.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
No, GoG Galaxy is not entirely optional. It is required to run many newer games, and can be required even if you're not trying to play multiplayer. I don't understand how this is supposed to be compatible with GoG's marketing as "the DRM-free home for games".
- speeder 6y ago
  What game requires GoG Galaxy? EDIT: even googled it, found out Darkest Dungeon by default install a version that does need GoG Galaxy, but the DRM-free version is available on GoG site too, just need to choose that downloader instead. But that was it. Didn't found any other obvious complaints of GoG Galaxy being required.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    Northgard requires Galaxy for single-player content. It's not subtle about it. Your response says more about what you can tell with a quick google search than anything else. I'm fascinated that I've been complaining about this here on HN for months, and the only response I ever get -- which comes up every time -- is "what are you talking about, that's not true". This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not even difficult to check. And yet, there are so many people whose worldview apparently rests on the opposite of the facts.