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"A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person wh

"A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children." So, a few problems here: 1. Parenting is not a choice when you have children in your home. 2. Most parents do not want to be woken up in the middle of the night to change a diaper, only to have their child pee on them while they do so. 3. It is not about priorities. Children need adult caregivers because they cannot survive on their own. COVID restrictions have upended childcare arrangements but children still need care, and when nobody else is available it is up to parents to provide care for their children. Nobody is weighing childcare against other possible non-work-related activities, because childcare is not optional. 4. If like me someone has a toddler in their home, working from home is difficult. Even with a nanny around to watch my son, he still wants to see what mommy and daddy are up to in the "office." He has no concept of us being busy with work; from his perspective it is more like, "Daddy is playing with something and it must be fun, I want to try it!" so he will run over and "type" on my keyboard (you try writing code while someone is randomly pounding on your keyboard). For people like me it is not that we are asking for time to be parents, but rather for our employers to recognize that by requiring us to work from home they are putting us in an environment where we cannot be as productive as we were at the office. "when people are working till 11pm" What makes you think parents are not working late -- for example, because they cannot have uninterrupted time to work until after their children are asleep for the night?

dheera 6y ago
So while I agree with your facts here, I would also like to point out that there are other things besides parenting that are also non-negotiable but are neglected. 1. Yes, children need self-care. But so do adults. Just as it is wrong to tell someone they can't take care of their child, I'd say it's equally wrong to tell an adult that they can't, for example, get their exercise time, because I would consider that also a human necessity. You risk early death if you do not exercise. For medical reasons I don't need to state here, the risk may be even higher for me personally if I don't get that time. Other adults have other medical conditions they need to attend to. However, not all workplaces recognize these as on par with taking care of children. 2. Those that choose not to have children may also be playing essential roles in our society in their off-hours. Heck, they may be volunteering at the Red Cross and saving other children from death, who knows, that may be why they chose not to have kids. Should we judge? 3. Let's not underestimate how important mental health is to society. People will die (from various causes, including suicide) if they are made to work late every day. Yes, I agree that children need to be taken care of. But the response to that shouldn't be to take an unreasonable work share given to a working parent and shove the excess onto the single/child-less workers in the same organization to slave away for 80 hours a week. This actually happens, and I have seen it happen. Instead, the response should be to give everyone a fair, normal 40-hour work share and let them do whatever they need or want to with their spare time.
- varrock 6y ago
  Your point one isn't making sense because the parents are not caring for themselves, they are caring for another person. If they wanted to exercise, they'd have to find the same hours as those without children, which is usually before work or after work. They probably have a harder time doing that, too.
- Cd00d 6y ago
  I'm unsure if you're having an empathy problem or need to find a new employer, to be honest. When do parents get this self care? Between work, kids, sleep, what free moments are you imagining? If you can't fit in a workout when you're now without a commute, then I'm confused. And, if you equate a workout with the relentless task of educating and entertaining a toddler, well, you must be _very_ serious about your gym time. Little kids are 7a to 9p, _maybe_ a nap on a good day of an hour, and oh, if you slack too long they just don't get to learn math. Stop working late. Take care of yourself. Stop blaming people with other responsibilities if you're not doing that. Above all, develop empathy - this is hard for everyone, so stop playing the "those people are getting benefits I'm not" game.
- mrexroad 6y ago
  Please pardon the COVID parent in me, but... Spare time? What the fuck is that even? Mental health? Critical, but after the absolute minimum needed to stave off burn out, everything is diverted to minimizing the long term damage to my kids (especially those with special needs). I spent years working 70-90 hour weeks for months at a time at startups... but trying to even get a solid 35-40hours in each week is taking a far greater toll. But from what you’re saying, it sounds like you need better communication with your management. Otherwise, I can’t imagine it having been a healthy environment pre-COVID.
- kelnos 6y ago
  > Just as it is wrong to tell someone they can't take care of their child, I'd say it's equally wrong to tell an adult that they can't, for example, get their exercise time, because I would consider that also a human necessity. I'm a little confused by this argument, because (if you don't have children) the time you had to exercise pre-COVID is still available to you. If you used to get up at 7am, go out for a run for an hour, come back, shower, and start your work day, you... can still do that. If somehow you are unable to continue this routine during COVID, perhaps because your employer is expecting you (as someone who is childless) to work until 11pm, which makes you too tired to get up to exercise, then shouldn't your ire be directed at your employer for imposing unreasonable work expectations? It seems pretty pointless to get pissed off at parents because of that. I also do not have kids. I put in 8-10 hours a day, just as I did pre-COVID, and have the same amount of free time as I used to. It's very different free time, and there are mental health implications to that, but none of that in any way has anything to do with my employer showing empathy toward parents and making allowances for them to take care of their kids during the work day. The big difference between parents and non-parents is that child care is not optional during work hours. If your school or pre-school or day care or whatever has shut down because of COVID, you can't simply opt out of caring for your child because you have to work. COVID has not given non-parents any new non-work responsibilities during work hours. But it has certainly done so for parents.
dkersten 6y ago
> Parenting is not a choice when you have children in your home. Of course not, but choosing to have children in the first place is.
- gwd 6y ago
  > Of course not, but choosing to have children in the first place is. The choice to have kids isn't like the choice to work out or get good at Starcraft. It's a choice which benefits all of society. If you're 30, the toddlers of today will be voting and coming into the workforce and voting when you're 50; and will be basically running your country when you're 70. If the next generation isn't raised to take your place, your retirement is going to really stink. And the character and attitude of the toddlers now are going to have a massive impact on your life. When the harassed parent on your Zoom call apologizes and puts you on mute to spend 30 seconds interacting with their toddler, that's an investment in your own future. Be grateful for them for doing that work.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - belorn 6y ago
    People who spend more free time on themselves and improve physical and mental health is also a benefit to society since they will use less of resources from the health sector and pay taxes longer (and often more). Giving everyone more time is something which benefits society. Studies done on 6hrs work day (or 4 days work week) has shown exactly that. Better health, more time with children, less resources needed in the health sector. An argument being presented together with such reduction in work hours would be to raise the pension age again, which would then increase how much taxes a person pay in a life time. In addition more people with disabilities can stay in the work force when there is more balance between work hours and home. This also increase taxes and reduces medical costs, and also reduces the amount of people who need to enter early pension. The calculations are not as simple as saying that people without children are just wasting societies resources when not at work.
    - 6y ago

dheera 6y ago

So while I agree with your facts here, I would also like to point out that there are other things besides parenting that are also non-negotiable but are neglected. 1. Yes, children need self-care. But so do adults. Just as it is wrong to tell someone they can't take care of their child, I'd say it's equally wrong to tell an adult that they can't, for example, get their exercise time, because I would consider that also a human necessity. You risk early death if you do not exercise. For medical reasons I don't need to state here, the risk may be even higher for me personally if I don't get that time. Other adults have other medical conditions they need to attend to. However, not all workplaces recognize these as on par with taking care of children. 2. Those that choose not to have children may also be playing essential roles in our society in their off-hours. Heck, they may be volunteering at the Red Cross and saving other children from death, who knows, that may be why they chose not to have kids. Should we judge? 3. Let's not underestimate how important mental health is to society. People will die (from various causes, including suicide) if they are made to work late every day. Yes, I agree that children need to be taken care of. But the response to that shouldn't be to take an unreasonable work share given to a working parent and shove the excess onto the single/child-less workers in the same organization to slave away for 80 hours a week. This actually happens, and I have seen it happen. Instead, the response should be to give everyone a fair, normal 40-hour work share and let them do whatever they need or want to with their spare time.

varrock 6y ago
Your point one isn't making sense because the parents are not caring for themselves, they are caring for another person. If they wanted to exercise, they'd have to find the same hours as those without children, which is usually before work or after work. They probably have a harder time doing that, too.
Cd00d 6y ago
I'm unsure if you're having an empathy problem or need to find a new employer, to be honest. When do parents get this self care? Between work, kids, sleep, what free moments are you imagining? If you can't fit in a workout when you're now without a commute, then I'm confused. And, if you equate a workout with the relentless task of educating and entertaining a toddler, well, you must be _very_ serious about your gym time. Little kids are 7a to 9p, _maybe_ a nap on a good day of an hour, and oh, if you slack too long they just don't get to learn math. Stop working late. Take care of yourself. Stop blaming people with other responsibilities if you're not doing that. Above all, develop empathy - this is hard for everyone, so stop playing the "those people are getting benefits I'm not" game.
mrexroad 6y ago
Please pardon the COVID parent in me, but... Spare time? What the fuck is that even? Mental health? Critical, but after the absolute minimum needed to stave off burn out, everything is diverted to minimizing the long term damage to my kids (especially those with special needs). I spent years working 70-90 hour weeks for months at a time at startups... but trying to even get a solid 35-40hours in each week is taking a far greater toll. But from what you’re saying, it sounds like you need better communication with your management. Otherwise, I can’t imagine it having been a healthy environment pre-COVID.
kelnos 6y ago
> Just as it is wrong to tell someone they can't take care of their child, I'd say it's equally wrong to tell an adult that they can't, for example, get their exercise time, because I would consider that also a human necessity. I'm a little confused by this argument, because (if you don't have children) the time you had to exercise pre-COVID is still available to you. If you used to get up at 7am, go out for a run for an hour, come back, shower, and start your work day, you... can still do that. If somehow you are unable to continue this routine during COVID, perhaps because your employer is expecting you (as someone who is childless) to work until 11pm, which makes you too tired to get up to exercise, then shouldn't your ire be directed at your employer for imposing unreasonable work expectations? It seems pretty pointless to get pissed off at parents because of that. I also do not have kids. I put in 8-10 hours a day, just as I did pre-COVID, and have the same amount of free time as I used to. It's very different free time, and there are mental health implications to that, but none of that in any way has anything to do with my employer showing empathy toward parents and making allowances for them to take care of their kids during the work day. The big difference between parents and non-parents is that child care is not optional during work hours. If your school or pre-school or day care or whatever has shut down because of COVID, you can't simply opt out of caring for your child because you have to work. COVID has not given non-parents any new non-work responsibilities during work hours. But it has certainly done so for parents.

dkersten 6y ago

> Parenting is not a choice when you have children in your home. Of course not, but choosing to have children in the first place is.

gwd 6y ago
> Of course not, but choosing to have children in the first place is. The choice to have kids isn't like the choice to work out or get good at Starcraft. It's a choice which benefits all of society. If you're 30, the toddlers of today will be voting and coming into the workforce and voting when you're 50; and will be basically running your country when you're 70. If the next generation isn't raised to take your place, your retirement is going to really stink. And the character and attitude of the toddlers now are going to have a massive impact on your life. When the harassed parent on your Zoom call apologizes and puts you on mute to spend 30 seconds interacting with their toddler, that's an investment in your own future. Be grateful for them for doing that work.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- belorn 6y ago
  People who spend more free time on themselves and improve physical and mental health is also a benefit to society since they will use less of resources from the health sector and pay taxes longer (and often more). Giving everyone more time is something which benefits society. Studies done on 6hrs work day (or 4 days work week) has shown exactly that. Better health, more time with children, less resources needed in the health sector. An argument being presented together with such reduction in work hours would be to raise the pension age again, which would then increase how much taxes a person pay in a life time. In addition more people with disabilities can stay in the work force when there is more balance between work hours and home. This also increase taxes and reduces medical costs, and also reduces the amount of people who need to enter early pension. The calculations are not as simple as saying that people without children are just wasting societies resources when not at work.
  - 6y ago