8 ms·
Apple accuses Epic of “Willful, brazen, and unlawful” conduct
- tomcam 6y agoShameless plug for my startup, popcorner.io (YC S20), which sends you weekly updates to high profile cases like this one. Administered by Top 10% law school grads with federal Appeals or Supreme court clerking experience, we send out plain-English commentary weekly by email, plus a snail-mailed new flavor of fair trade non-GMO popcorn each month. Popcorn clubs have been springing up at many law schools with in-person classes this fall, much to our surprise. The kids get together IRL with popcorn and beer, discussing the finer points of this normally very complicated cases, and sometimes professors join in the fun. In other news, our subreddit has been "popping" since the suit was announced last week. Hint: try the apple-cinnamon popcorn, my favorite. They finally got the Stevia optimized for microwaving. While our Epic vs. Apple package is popular, the Trump vs. Biden Contested Election anticipatory special left us scrambling to fill orders and we're trying to find more clerks at SCOTUS who are willing to make a lateral move. paulg even helped us stuff the intro packages at our warehouse just outside of Cambridge. He was super nice and fit right in with the rest of us. Thanks, Paul! This fake post brought to you by Covid cabin fever
- exabrial 6y agoNot enough people read the whole thing before downvoting. Brilliant. I'm sure you're in talks with SoftBank about an acquisition?
- tomcam 6y agoI was until they saw the score here. They called me back to their Palo Alto office this afternoon, pantsed me, and covered my leased Tesla with Trump 2020 bumper stickers. At Tesla right now getting the dents taken care of along with the window damage.
- kohtatsu 6y agoDarn, I was hoping the weekly review of high profile legal cases was real. I'd pay $5/month.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y agoI run a problem validation platform where people can post the problem/need gaps for startups to solve[1]. You're welcome to post this and perhaps someone would do it if there was enough need. [1]https://needgap.com https://needgap.com
- ethbr0 6y agohttps://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolabmoreperfect/episodes/the-political-thicket https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolabmoreperfect/epi... And relive all the early-2000 SCO drama at your leisure: http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831173953678 http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2003083117...
- tomcam 6y agoWeirdly one of my greatest pleasures in life is in fact having lunch with a brilliant lawyer friend of mine and discussing Constitutional law. It’s got real lately, and we live in Seattle. Current events weren’t like this when we started these chats a decade and a half ago...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- searchableguy 6y agoIs this gpt3?
- tomcam 6y agoSadly no
- WD-42 6y agoYou had me. Now I want popcorn.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sqreept 6y agoPorque cuando la tiranía es ley, la revolución es orden.
- pmcollins 6y agoThis is a quote from Puerto Rican attorney and politician Pedro Campos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Albizu_Campos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Albizu_Campos
- AlexandrB 6y agoGeez. It's pretty tasteless to compare a political freedom movement to opposing some restrictive terms of service. It's like putting a picture of Thích Quảng Đức on your blog about why DRM is bad.
- devmunchies 6y agoApple has a bigger impact on the economy than most nations. It’s not a frivolous comparison.
- Tehdasi 6y agoOr doing an ad where you are a self insert into 1984 and your competitor is big brother?
- darksaints 6y agoThe Arab spring started because police confiscated the produce of a street vendor operating without a permit. Granted, there aren't many people that would self-immolate over Apple's terms of service, but the point is that economic freedom is still an important political freedom that people are willing to die over.
- gpm 6y agoDuplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24412810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24412810 Also, editorialized title.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pmcollins 6y agoI thought so too at first about the editorialized title, but there's this quote from the document: > Epic fired the first shot in this dispute, and its willful, brazen, and unlawful conduct cannot be left unchecked.
- mwill 6y agoYeah I hope the title isn't change, Apple has literally accused epic of "Willful, brazen and unlawful conduct"
- nanagojo 6y agoIt's not an article link, so don't see how it can be editorialized. The title itself is a quote from the document as well. > Epic fired the first shot in this dispute, and its willful, brazen, and unlawful conduct cannot beleft unchecked. Neither Mr. Sweeney’s self-righteous (and self-interested) demands nor the scale ofEpic’s business can justify Epic’s deliberate contractual breaches, its tortious conduct, or its unfair business practices. This Court should hold Epic to its contractual promises, award Applecompensatory and punitive damages, and enjoin Epic from engaging in further unfair business practices
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- chrismsimpson 6y agoMeanwhile in other news, pot calls kettle black
- DonaldPShimoda 6y agoAh, no, because in that metaphor the kettle isn't black, but is shiny and reflecting the pot's image back, which implies that Apple is the bad guy here and Epic is not.
- forrestthewoods 6y ago> which implies that Apple is the bad guy here and Epic is not Correct.
- pier25 6y ago> Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers. A bit apocalyptic, no Apple?
- ErikVandeWater 6y agoI really wonder if there is a benefit to writing such hyperbole. I imagine a judge would just scoff at this and be a little annoyed at Apple going forward.
- ethbr0 6y agoDepends on how much Apple stock they own.
- thelastbender12 6y agoYour comment is probably in jest but I'm curious - when the public employees' retirement funds are tied in to the equity market and a few companies like Apple/Google drive the price movement, does it introduce adverse incentives when ruling on an anti-competitive behavior lawsuit?
- ethbr0 6y agoWhen you have substantially overweight exposure to a few companies in market cap weighted indices, I think it's a fair point. Apple's multiple shrinking would cause inordinate pain in a lot of places.
- pbalau 6y agoI take it as a direct response to Epic argument that them being banned from App Store somehow prevents them from supporting iOS game developers and said developers going out of business.
- BluSyn 6y agoImagine Facebook forcing users to install their own App Store to install Messenger. I think such outcomes are quite apocalyptic if you see what road that leads down.
- CydeWeys 6y agoThat's a lot of strong words over what amounts to nothing more than a contract dispute.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- divbzero 6y agoDo these words have specific legal meaning beyond their emotional connotations? (Note the HN title is editorialized as sibling comments point out.)
- CydeWeys 6y ago"Unlawful" is a very broad term that could mean nothing more than "We had a contract and we believe you violated that contract (which is unlawful) and we therefore want civil restitution". The way it's phrased though it almost sounds like they're accusing Epic of a crime, which just isn't the case here; it's nothing more than possibly breach of contract.
- ggregoire 6y agoEpic uses very strong words too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euiSHuaw6Q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euiSHuaw6Q4 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic
- devwastaken 6y agoThe pot calling the kettle black. Obviously epic did this all on purpose, but that purpose is for good reason, to show that mobile software can no longer be entirely controlled by singular entities with significant conflicts of interest. The natural market of mobile software is choked out by Apple and Google. Theyre not accepting that the market they originally created has now gone significantly further than what they can and should control. They impliment anti competitive practices, removing apps that may compete with them, where they can completely bankrupt multi million dollar companies based on good mobile software. Markets belong to everyone, praise be capitalism.
- tasogare 6y ago30% commission, no alternative store(s), $99/year developer subscription, only seven days side loading on person device if not paying the aforementioned fees, Apple have for long stockpiled reasons for developers and hobbyists to dislike how they treat developers. I’m siding 100% with Epic on this.
- olliej 6y agoAs opposed to all the other stores that ... charge 30% or so, but don’t host free software as well? Seriously, I need someone to explain what makes this any different from The google store or consoles? I mean aside from consoles not supporting free (as in price) software either
- Gobd 6y agoOn an Android phone I can just use F-Droid or install an apk I downloaded from anywhere. That's not the case with an iPhone. Not sure about consoles.
- justapassenger 6y ago2 wrongs don't make a right.
- m00x 6y agoAndroid has the ability to side-load, as well as install other app stores. IOS has a complete monopoly on their mobile vertical.
- fooey 6y agoApples going for blood. They're asking the court to give them all the commissions Epic failed to pay while their direct payment system was online, going out of their way to describe it as theft. > Award restitution and disgorgement of all earnings, profits, compensation, benefits, and other ill-gotten gains obtained by Epic as a result of its conduct inviolation of the UCL
- notyourwork 6y agoI find it interesting that subscription services (Spotify or Netflix for example) can have multiple channels for subscription and get away with it. What part of this am I missing that makes Epic's use case unique.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y agoYou can't actually sign up and pay for Spotify premium inside the iOS app, and I believe Netflix and Amazon Prime Video fall into a different "streaming video" category where they pay 15% instead of 30%, with some caveats: they must support both Airplay and AppleTV (exposing their entire video catalogues to Apple), and some other smaller things. It's all silly and arbitrary, and video game creators have been understandably upset for a long time.
- selectodude 6y agoNowhere in the Spotify or Netflix app does it tell you how to sign up other than the in-app purchase option which is 30 percent more.
- cma 6y agoEpic also barely uses any of the toolkit stuff and has their own UI. They may use Metal, but I don't think there is a Vulkan option from Apple on iOS. They probably only have native widgets where mandated (text entry, etc.).
- lstamour 6y agoIf I recall correctly, “Reader” apps and “TV” apps have different rules available to them, video games and in-game purchases are not eligible under those rules...
- shmerl 6y agoSounds like Apple are describing themselves?
- bumblebritches5 6y ago> unlawful lol wat
- ghastmaster 6y agoEpic is disingenuous. They could totally transform the mobile market by investing in IOS alternatives. If you don't like what/how someone is doing something, don't cry about it. Do it better. This is simply a political gamble. They are hoping that the publicity gained results in politicians opening up the app store to favor app creators (epic) through regulation. It's a pathetic move.
- amanaplanacanal 6y agoIt’s only a pathetic move if it doesn’t work. If it works, then it was a great move.
- bigphishy 6y agoThis type of comment belongs on reddit or some other medium that supports vacuous comments.
- m00x 6y agoYou mean develop a new phone, mobile operating system and compete with the 2 largest companies in the US? Why didn't they think of that? /s
- ghastmaster 6y agoI understand. My point is that epic has a very high valuation. Their money is of course focused on gaming, but they could branch into the mobile market. When the iPhone came out Apple had, what 5% share of the desktop market and no phones? Yet they managed to dominate the mobile market. Nothing in this world is static.
- r0fl 6y agoThis is the funniest thing I have read here in 2020. Literally spit my drink out. Thanks for the laugh man
- pedroma 6y ago
- throwawaynothx 6y ago"For years, Epic took advantage of everything the App Store had to offer. It availed itself of the tools, technology, software, marketing opportunities, and customer reach that Apple provided" - I laughed quite hard at this one.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- qzw 6y agoI think on some level Apple is happy to have this lawsuit at this time. The App Store revenue has become more significant and also presents big opportunities for growth. Especially with the arrival of ARM macs, the future points to a world where the “Apple Tax” might be a literal 30% cut on all transactions conducted through an Apple device. So for Apple it would be good to get some legal clarity before they make such moves. Sure, it would be painful if they lost, but it could be much more so later on. According to a study cited by Apple, they took a cut on only $61B of the $519B of total sales generated by the App Store. They’ve got to be salivating at that latter figure. If they could get 30% of $500B+, it would be more than half of their current annual revenue.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- grwthckrmstr 6y agoI would pay for a gaming smartphone (and peripherals) from Epic that uses a fork of Android OS. Would use it initially as the perfect portable gaming device, which alone is enough to get Epic 100mns+ of distribution. Epic can subsidise the cost of the smartphone as they would make money from apps and games. They can set their example by taking 5-12% commission. And after hitting Epic scale and by practicing the principles it preaches Sweeney can show the world a better way.