4 ms·

Assuming your comment is in good faith, one reason a lot of this is coming from intelligence related sources is, media access is extremely restricted in Xinjian

Assuming your comment is in good faith, one reason a lot of this is coming from intelligence related sources is, media access is extremely restricted in Xinjiang and Tibet. Intelligence agencies have a better chance at getting in, because of their covert ops mandate and training. Also, wire feeds and media publications like AP, Guardian etc have their independent reporting on it as well like.[1] Facts might be getting exaggerated but it is not helped by reluctance of CCP to come clean on issues like Covid-19 origins, beligerence towards anyone who says/does something they dislike and comical claims like nine dash line which they are forcing on others like a bully. These at least are open for everyone to see. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minorit...

lightgreen 6y ago
BTW, just the fact that China is hiding something in Xinjiang and Tibet and we don't know what exactly is enough to impose sanctions. There's no presumption of innocence here, it is not a criminal court.
- Aperocky 6y ago
  Keeping up with the tradition to invade countries off invented suspicion of WMD.
  - actuator 6y ago
    I doubt most sane people are asking for an invasion.
    - nitrobeast 6y ago
      Most people do not want any war, even if it is against CCP. However the current administration seems to be pushing for at least a limited skirmish. US airforce planes have been flying 100 miles off the coast of major Chinese cities. It is less reported in US news outlets though.
      - bertjk 6y ago
        US spy planes flying near china is definitely not new, nor limited to this administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident
        xster 6y ago
        You're not wrong. Though following your line of thought, US sacking Beijing isn't new or limited to this administration either https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing...
tehjoker 6y ago
I want to believe her, but again: "Her story, first told to the Dutch Uyghur Human Rights Foundation, is difficult to verify. It is hard to take photos inside detention facilities and there is little documentation. But details match accounts by other camp detainees and research into coercive birth control practices." This person's story is heartbreaking, but it is merely a thread in an investigation if hard evidence isn't there. The DURF, when you go to their website (https://www.duhrf.org/who-are-the-uyghurs/ https://www.duhrf.org/who-are-the-uyghurs/), is run by five apparently anonymous individuals. They have links to other organizations, one of which I know has at least some leadership linked to American regime change projects. I'm Jewish. I can't stand authoritarian regimes or concentration camps (hence my objections to the current US regime). However, I don't want to be lead by the nose into another war or brutal sanctions regime that kills hundreds of thousands or millions (as has happened many times in the past) because I didn't ask for evidence when it mattered. If China is really doing this stuff, show me hard evidence.
- actuator 6y ago
  Your skepticism is well placed, but if retaliation against your family/extended family can take place, I can see why they might have chosen to stay anonymous. Regarding the links with the other organisation, if these are really responsible for regime changes, I can see why they might want to fund their activities but that doesn't prove CCP's innocence. Though five decades back but US administration ignored the blood telegram[1] when a genocide of millions happened and they supported the regime who did it, so they definitely are not some white knights as well. It would be hard to get hard evidence I think, there have been videos of prisoner transfers between these camps, satellite footage of these structures but CCP can always spin a different story about them. Anyway war is something no one should indulge in unless it threatens their own sovereignty, it is not worth it. I would say sanctions are reasonable though with the evidence we have seen, considering the other things as well which I had mentioned in my original comment. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_Kissinger,_and_a_Forgotten_Genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_K...
- ardy42 6y ago
  > If China is really doing this stuff, show me hard evidence. What exactly is "hard evidence" to you? The point of evidence is to get at the truth, and standards that are either too low or too high both fail to achieve that. The former admits lies; the latter denies truth, which can be thought of another kind of lie.

lightgreen 6y ago

BTW, just the fact that China is hiding something in Xinjiang and Tibet and we don't know what exactly is enough to impose sanctions. There's no presumption of innocence here, it is not a criminal court.

Aperocky 6y ago
Keeping up with the tradition to invade countries off invented suspicion of WMD.
- actuator 6y ago
  I doubt most sane people are asking for an invasion.
  - nitrobeast 6y ago
    Most people do not want any war, even if it is against CCP. However the current administration seems to be pushing for at least a limited skirmish. US airforce planes have been flying 100 miles off the coast of major Chinese cities. It is less reported in US news outlets though.
    - bertjk 6y ago
      US spy planes flying near china is definitely not new, nor limited to this administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident
      - xster 6y ago
        You're not wrong. Though following your line of thought, US sacking Beijing isn't new or limited to this administration either https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing...

tehjoker 6y ago

I want to believe her, but again: "Her story, first told to the Dutch Uyghur Human Rights Foundation, is difficult to verify. It is hard to take photos inside detention facilities and there is little documentation. But details match accounts by other camp detainees and research into coercive birth control practices." This person's story is heartbreaking, but it is merely a thread in an investigation if hard evidence isn't there. The DURF, when you go to their website (https://www.duhrf.org/who-are-the-uyghurs/ https://www.duhrf.org/who-are-the-uyghurs/), is run by five apparently anonymous individuals. They have links to other organizations, one of which I know has at least some leadership linked to American regime change projects. I'm Jewish. I can't stand authoritarian regimes or concentration camps (hence my objections to the current US regime). However, I don't want to be lead by the nose into another war or brutal sanctions regime that kills hundreds of thousands or millions (as has happened many times in the past) because I didn't ask for evidence when it mattered. If China is really doing this stuff, show me hard evidence.

actuator 6y ago
Your skepticism is well placed, but if retaliation against your family/extended family can take place, I can see why they might have chosen to stay anonymous. Regarding the links with the other organisation, if these are really responsible for regime changes, I can see why they might want to fund their activities but that doesn't prove CCP's innocence. Though five decades back but US administration ignored the blood telegram[1] when a genocide of millions happened and they supported the regime who did it, so they definitely are not some white knights as well. It would be hard to get hard evidence I think, there have been videos of prisoner transfers between these camps, satellite footage of these structures but CCP can always spin a different story about them. Anyway war is something no one should indulge in unless it threatens their own sovereignty, it is not worth it. I would say sanctions are reasonable though with the evidence we have seen, considering the other things as well which I had mentioned in my original comment. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_Kissinger,_and_a_Forgotten_Genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_K...
ardy42 6y ago
> If China is really doing this stuff, show me hard evidence. What exactly is "hard evidence" to you? The point of evidence is to get at the truth, and standards that are either too low or too high both fail to achieve that. The former admits lies; the latter denies truth, which can be thought of another kind of lie.