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tbh, I'm not sure if I believe the allegations. Most of the most serious assertions have come from people connected to the CIA and the various Radio Free * news
by tehjoker 6y ago
tbh, I'm not sure if I believe the allegations. Most of the most serious assertions have come from people connected to the CIA and the various Radio Free * newsources that come from the state department. Very few of these stories are independently verified and the numbers claimed are comical. Of 11M people, they claim 3M are in camps. A friend of mine's sister just visited XJ and said it was fine. You can't hide 3M people out of 11M. Given the anti-China stance of the ruling class right now, I am extremely skeptical of various scurrilous claims being bandied about. The US routinely lies about official enemies and has for decades (nay centuries), so their record should speak for itself. A recent example is the Iraq War and WMD. Another famous example is the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
For example, the US news reported that the UN had condemned the practices in XJ, but in fact it was one US person on one commission that didn't represent the UN as a whole. The US media has to do more than mere assertion. In any case, the current fascist US regime has little credibility on human rights issues given their open support for police murders and various policies of ripping children away from travelers and imprisoning them.
I'd like to say show me the evidence, but unfortunately when I try to read chinese government documents or political discourse I am befuddled by my inability to read chinese. :-/ Note how many US reporters on these stories cannot either.
- actuator 6y agoAssuming your comment is in good faith, one reason a lot of this is coming from intelligence related sources is, media access is extremely restricted in Xinjiang and Tibet. Intelligence agencies have a better chance at getting in, because of their covert ops mandate and training. Also, wire feeds and media publications like AP, Guardian etc have their independent reporting on it as well like.[1] Facts might be getting exaggerated but it is not helped by reluctance of CCP to come clean on issues like Covid-19 origins, beligerence towards anyone who says/does something they dislike and comical claims like nine dash line which they are forcing on others like a bully. These at least are open for everyone to see. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minority-teacher-50-tells-of-forced-sterilisation-in-xinjiang-china https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/04/muslim-minorit...
- lightgreen 6y agoBTW, just the fact that China is hiding something in Xinjiang and Tibet and we don't know what exactly is enough to impose sanctions. There's no presumption of innocence here, it is not a criminal court.
- Aperocky 6y agoKeeping up with the tradition to invade countries off invented suspicion of WMD.
- actuator 6y agoI doubt most sane people are asking for an invasion.
- nitrobeast 6y agoMost people do not want any war, even if it is against CCP. However the current administration seems to be pushing for at least a limited skirmish. US airforce planes have been flying 100 miles off the coast of major Chinese cities. It is less reported in US news outlets though.
- bertjk 6y agoUS spy planes flying near china is definitely not new, nor limited to this administration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident
- xster 6y agoYou're not wrong. Though following your line of thought, US sacking Beijing isn't new or limited to this administration either https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/when-americans-ruled-beijing...
- 6y ago
- dicomdan 6y agodang PTAL at this
- xster 6y agoI'd love to hear more about what you're implying here and what else constitutes though crime for you.
- colordrops 6y agoI agree. I've not seen a single piece of indisputable evidence - virtually everything has been "take our word for it" or some indistinct satellite photo of a building. Considering that an anti-China stance is part of Trump's strategy, and intelligence agencies have been caught lying countless times (e.g. Iraq's WMD) to further their agenda, there's no good reason to believe these accusations. The Chinese are certainly a totalitarian regime, and it is certain that the people of Xinjiang are not in a good state, and there are certainly political prisoners there. But, as you mentioned, the numbers I've heard of 1-2 million prisoners (there are 10 million Uyghurs in total) in concentration camps and slave labor etc seem extremely exaggerated. Pretty much everyone in china has a phone with a camera, including Uyghurs. You'd think at least a few videos of indisputable evidence would be leaked. If you want to accuse a nation of a holocaust, you must have strong evidence. And on a tangential note, the US has the world's largest prison population, at 22% of the world's prisoners, and a disproportionate number are black. The Chinese could also spin the situation and say that the Americans are running concentration camps for blacks and be on similar footing. People mistake the frequency and breadth of repetition of a narrative as a measure of truth value, and the three letter agencies take advantage of this human bias, hence the downvotes for your salient comment. It's not easy to take a contrarian stance in these times.
- thoughtstheseus 6y agoPretty sure there is no such thing as indisputable evidence. What evidence would suffice for you though?
- Aunche 6y agoTake a look at the "UN report" that was referenced in the article. It looks like they just interviewed 8 villagers in different villages to estimate the number of people being detained and extrapolated that to all of Xinjiang. Any evidence less handwavy than that would be a good start. https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghu...
- animationwill 6y ago> A friend of mine's sister just visited XJ and said it was fine. How is that anecdote considered relevant? Did she inspect every acre? I think you'll learn more from this video than your friend's sister: https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/chinas-vanishing-muslims-undercover-in-the-most-dystopian-place-in-the-world/5d151050be4077106e412141 https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/chinas-vanishing-muslims-...
- phist_mcgee 6y agoHey PLA commenter! Great to see you here making sure that the discourse around this issue becomes muddied, and opinions framed as 'logical and critical thinking dissent' are given as much air time as others. I am really glad you mentioned other issues that were unrelated to this discussion and using emotional language such as: >various policies of ripping children away from travelers and imprisoning them. We thank you for your input and hope you enjoy working for a brutal authoritarian dictator :)
- colordrops 6y agoI believe that accusing someone of being a shill is against HN rules.
- pldr1234 6y agoYet actually being a shill is not? That's quite the lopsided rule set.
- metiscus 6y agoThe correct procedure is to email the mods if someone is suspected of being a shill.
- colordrops 6y agoI don't think you get it. Where does this person explicitly say they are being paid or otherwise being compensated for their opinion? You don't just get to decide that someone is a shill because you dislike their opinion.
- phist_mcgee 6y agoI sure do get to decide that they are a shill based upon my perception of their post, their post history, and the manner in which they post. My opinion is that this person is part of china's disinformation campaign against western criticism of that country's policies. If that person is not a paid or unpaid shill, they are still serving the purpose to shill china and their framing of the debate.