4 ms·

> You need 2.1 kids per person for society to continue existing. I don't understand this statement. Is it 2.1 kids per person or per family/couple? Has society

by shock 6y ago

> You need 2.1 kids per person for society to continue existing. I don't understand this statement. Is it 2.1 kids per person or per family/couple? Has society collapsed in countries where the average is below the 2.1 figure you are quoting? If you are talking about the extinction of the human race and not societal collapse, then I don't buy for a second the argument that someone choosing whether to have children or not is making the choice based on the "human race extinction" factor. When making choices, most humans could care less for their 2-days-in-the-future-self, nevermind caring for the human race.

satyrnein 6y ago
Replacement rate is usually described as 2.1 children per woman. Basically every 2 person couple needs to have 2.1 kids, because some die of accidents, etc. Going below that doesn't cause instant societal collapse, but if you look at Japan for example, they now consume more adult diapers than baby diapers, which will not be good for the viability of their pensions, etc. I personally decided that I did feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race, and that nothing else I would likely do could ever rival that in terms of lasting consequence. And folks who are interested in making it harder for parents or harder for children because they feel like families get too much slack or something, they are de facto aligned against the mission of continuing the human race, and I hope they change their minds over time.
- shock 6y ago
  > I personally decided that I did feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race I also feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race, but I don't pretend that I didn't make a choice, that somehow there was no other real option for me to choose.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    You really aren't understanding that we are talking about societal choices writ large, not about individual choices. Think bigger. If enough people make the individual choice not to have children then civilization is kaput.
    - shock 6y ago
      I understand that when enough people do not have children the human race will disappear. Civilization might disappear before then. I'm not talking about that. I'm also not talking about people having children or not. I'm arguing for people to assume responsibility for their choices(whatever the choice may be) and to not go "Oh, I really didn't have a choice in the matter". I especially dislike it when people present their choice as a sacrifice for humanity. Another poster put it better: > People can have children without congratulating themselves for a sacrifice well delivered ... Kinship for species only extends so far and not much at all when there is parental entitlement.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Good for you. If you think it’s your duty, there is no contract with society that others should subsidize your dutifulness.
  - dctoedt 6y ago
    > If you think it’s your duty, there is no contract with society that others should subsidize your dutifulness. But neither do the rest of us have any obligation not to band together and vote in legislators who will tax the shit out of the childless-by-choice — because in the long term, the childless-by-choice are the ones being subsidized by those who us who have raised children. Don't like it? Then do something about it, or move elsewhere.
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      How are the childless by choice subsidized? Are they given free services? When you have a child, 12 years of education(amongst other things(are handed over free). That’s 10k minimum/annum. Totally 120k worth of free education. PER CHILD. The more children one can have, more benefits. Net benefits exceed that by several hundreds of thousands. The childless get NOTHING. If they are successful enough financially, they are taxed for their entire lifetime to support those whose children get subsidized. And still the whining and whinging and cries for the red badge of honor. I am embarrassed for you lot. Wtf do you they need compassion for? I think of it as charity. Forced charity because my species is less equipped and capable than a band of apes in the jungle when it comes to resources management and survival and child rearing. I have nothing left to give. It’s like literally handing over money to someone for their choice to have sex without protection and children without a plan. Forget about compassion. How about some gratitude. The kids raised by these inept parents are going to be a further burden on society because they will literally have zero survival skills and a whole lot of entitlement. I am not moving anywhere. Those who can’t handle CA are moving elsewhere anyways. (I am looking at you Austen Allred of YC’s Lambda..spewing your snark about quitting CA for Utah...couldn’t you quit gracefully without spitting on the valley that made you successful?) Maybe withholding on the emotional blackmail and virtue signaling demands and rallying cries for more ‘compassion’ will finally make adults out of the whiners. You know what I see? I see a dystopian orange world out of my window. I see farm workers picking up YOUR food in this toxic soup weather and taking care of their children. While tech..and YC, I am looking at you..Michael Siebel, I am looking at YOU..because agtech for YC wasn’t profitable for food producing farms ..did NOTHING to fix the Ag in our state and the dire situation of the people bringing food to YOUR TABLES. I have literally ZERO compassion. Your air is clean. Farm workers are picking food under falling ash while tech twits are debugging Tinder. If we all starve because our Ag system crumbles, I still won’t have any compassion. Silicon Valley and tech sphere have FAILED the human race and our means for survival. Breeding children is not enough. We also have to make sure the world we LEAVE BEHIND for them is not straight out of the Blade Runner movie. Handle your kids. Farm workers are literally filling their lungs with ash and smoke to feed the fruits of your loins. Fucking hell!!
- edfletcher_t137 6y ago
  > they are de facto aligned against the mission of continuing the human race Holy hyperbole, Batman!

by shock 6y ago

satyrnein 6y ago

Replacement rate is usually described as 2.1 children per woman. Basically every 2 person couple needs to have 2.1 kids, because some die of accidents, etc. Going below that doesn't cause instant societal collapse, but if you look at Japan for example, they now consume more adult diapers than baby diapers, which will not be good for the viability of their pensions, etc. I personally decided that I did feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race, and that nothing else I would likely do could ever rival that in terms of lasting consequence. And folks who are interested in making it harder for parents or harder for children because they feel like families get too much slack or something, they are de facto aligned against the mission of continuing the human race, and I hope they change their minds over time.

shock 6y ago
> I personally decided that I did feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race I also feel a duty to do my part to continue the human race, but I don't pretend that I didn't make a choice, that somehow there was no other real option for me to choose.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  You really aren't understanding that we are talking about societal choices writ large, not about individual choices. Think bigger. If enough people make the individual choice not to have children then civilization is kaput.
  - shock 6y ago
    I understand that when enough people do not have children the human race will disappear. Civilization might disappear before then. I'm not talking about that. I'm also not talking about people having children or not. I'm arguing for people to assume responsibility for their choices(whatever the choice may be) and to not go "Oh, I really didn't have a choice in the matter". I especially dislike it when people present their choice as a sacrifice for humanity. Another poster put it better: > People can have children without congratulating themselves for a sacrifice well delivered ... Kinship for species only extends so far and not much at all when there is parental entitlement.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Good for you. If you think it’s your duty, there is no contract with society that others should subsidize your dutifulness.
- dctoedt 6y ago
  > If you think it’s your duty, there is no contract with society that others should subsidize your dutifulness. But neither do the rest of us have any obligation not to band together and vote in legislators who will tax the shit out of the childless-by-choice — because in the long term, the childless-by-choice are the ones being subsidized by those who us who have raised children. Don't like it? Then do something about it, or move elsewhere.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    How are the childless by choice subsidized? Are they given free services? When you have a child, 12 years of education(amongst other things(are handed over free). That’s 10k minimum/annum. Totally 120k worth of free education. PER CHILD. The more children one can have, more benefits. Net benefits exceed that by several hundreds of thousands. The childless get NOTHING. If they are successful enough financially, they are taxed for their entire lifetime to support those whose children get subsidized. And still the whining and whinging and cries for the red badge of honor. I am embarrassed for you lot. Wtf do you they need compassion for? I think of it as charity. Forced charity because my species is less equipped and capable than a band of apes in the jungle when it comes to resources management and survival and child rearing. I have nothing left to give. It’s like literally handing over money to someone for their choice to have sex without protection and children without a plan. Forget about compassion. How about some gratitude. The kids raised by these inept parents are going to be a further burden on society because they will literally have zero survival skills and a whole lot of entitlement. I am not moving anywhere. Those who can’t handle CA are moving elsewhere anyways. (I am looking at you Austen Allred of YC’s Lambda..spewing your snark about quitting CA for Utah...couldn’t you quit gracefully without spitting on the valley that made you successful?) Maybe withholding on the emotional blackmail and virtue signaling demands and rallying cries for more ‘compassion’ will finally make adults out of the whiners. You know what I see? I see a dystopian orange world out of my window. I see farm workers picking up YOUR food in this toxic soup weather and taking care of their children. While tech..and YC, I am looking at you..Michael Siebel, I am looking at YOU..because agtech for YC wasn’t profitable for food producing farms ..did NOTHING to fix the Ag in our state and the dire situation of the people bringing food to YOUR TABLES. I have literally ZERO compassion. Your air is clean. Farm workers are picking food under falling ash while tech twits are debugging Tinder. If we all starve because our Ag system crumbles, I still won’t have any compassion. Silicon Valley and tech sphere have FAILED the human race and our means for survival. Breeding children is not enough. We also have to make sure the world we LEAVE BEHIND for them is not straight out of the Blade Runner movie. Handle your kids. Farm workers are literally filling their lungs with ash and smoke to feed the fruits of your loins. Fucking hell!!
edfletcher_t137 6y ago
> they are de facto aligned against the mission of continuing the human race Holy hyperbole, Batman!