10 ms·

Not only web is getting slower, it is actually everything. I've read a similar article but talking about input latency(from key stroke to displaying on screen),

by mrjin 6y ago

Not only web is getting slower, it is actually everything. I've read a similar article but talking about input latency(from key stroke to displaying on screen), which is also steadily growing. The reason behind might be the same: we have far more computing power than ever, so we start to abusing it by spending lots of it on visual elements which is good to have but not essential.

canofbars 6y ago
Part of it is that modern screens have a much bigger latency than CRTs did. Largely I don't think it really matters. My desktop and phone feel very very responsive, Its only websites that are visibly slow to me. And most of that is waiting on the server. I click a link or submit a form and I have to wait seconds for the page to load where as with a local program its instant.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- t-writescode 6y ago
  I keep hearing this come up. Do you have a modern citation for this with modern monitors, say made within the last 5 years? It seems to be a constantly repeated myth or something of no consequence. (one article I read said LCDs have 2 ms higher latency than CRTs, which I would count as of no consequence)
  - archi42 6y ago
    The 3y old 4k Samsung TV in the living room can't be pushed below 50 to 60ms of latency, even with processing minimized, and compared to an audio signal NOT routed through it (the TV's line out obviously compensates for that, but is only stereo). Back in 2011/2012, when I got Rock Smith, I used a dslr camera to determine the latency of my LCD compared to my old CRT. Just took a snap of a ms counter racing up on both screens (mirrored). Can't recall the exact difference, but definitely much more than 2ms. I measured because I noticed it during gameplay; I'm pretty sensitive to delayed video/audio, but not 2ms sensitive - that's one beat off at 30.000bpm. You can use that technique to check for yourself with a more modern display.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      I specifically asked about monitors. TVs have a huge amount of latency and post processing that’s only recently gotten better. Computer monitors, on the other hand, have long since been very fast. I ask for evidence because I’m not the one presenting the claim and suspect it’s no longer true.
      - archi42 6y ago
        See my edit. I don't have a CRT anymore, so I'm afraid if you're interested in refuting or confirming that claim, you have to test it yourself ;)
    - SilasX 6y ago
      Yep, as a Dance Dance Revolution player, flat screens were pretty unusable from 2000 (at least for PS2 games) until recently because of lag even on settings that "minimize" it on upscale. Similar issue for emulation: for the SNES games on the Wii emulator, the game was much harder because you have to adjust for noticeable lag between your presses and the response. I also saw that on the Virgin in-flight Pac-Man: with their emulator, you have lag that makes the game harder. I was able to get a lot farther on the first try by playing on a classic machine.
lowwave 6y ago
Yes!!!! React/Redux and other SPA client-side rendering framework I'm talking about you! Just because you can, doesn't mean you need to make a page SPA acting like a desktop application. Stop it!!!! Stop making it a fashion industry out of web development. [End of Rant] KISS, SSR is fine for most the time for web pages!!! One exception to the above rule of SPA framework is mithril. However, I understand not everyone can code in LISP/Scheme way. So I don't blame it for not being more used and popular than React camp. However, they seems to have JSX support now, not sure if the performance is still the same when using JSX.
- cromwellian 6y ago
  Have you seen the performance of the Polymer Shop demo? https://shop.polymer-project.org/ https://shop.polymer-project.org/
cblconfederate 6y ago
computers aren't becoming that faster though. And it s not like new affordances are being added to pages , it's mostly aesthetics and ... trendiness that is driving the crazy monstrosity that is most pages today. Doesn't it have to do more with current software development practices? The requirement for reusable code , and the practice of coders having no loyalty and switching companies every very few years leads to the adoption of anti-optimizing standard practices. If Carmack was making doom today he would be ridiculed for not bundling his functional code and looked down upon for reinventing math functions. The idea that speed doesnt matter is just too prevalent
- Sebb767 6y ago
  > And it s not like new affordances are being added to pages , it's mostly aesthetics I agree on the point of websites getting slower, but not on that it doesn't add value. Website nowadays replace a lot of what would've been desktop applications ten years ago (see Dropbox, Slack, Google Docs, ...). It's not perfect, of course, - a lot of data now lies on PCs owned by somebody else - but skipping the installation/deinstallation part easily while also knowing that the app only has limited access to my PC is absolutely awesome.
Kiro 6y ago
> I've read a similar article but talking about input latency The conclusion in this article is that it's not getting slower though.

by mrjin 6y ago

canofbars 6y ago

Part of it is that modern screens have a much bigger latency than CRTs did. Largely I don't think it really matters. My desktop and phone feel very very responsive, Its only websites that are visibly slow to me. And most of that is waiting on the server. I click a link or submit a form and I have to wait seconds for the page to load where as with a local program its instant.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
t-writescode 6y ago
I keep hearing this come up. Do you have a modern citation for this with modern monitors, say made within the last 5 years? It seems to be a constantly repeated myth or something of no consequence. (one article I read said LCDs have 2 ms higher latency than CRTs, which I would count as of no consequence)
- archi42 6y ago
  The 3y old 4k Samsung TV in the living room can't be pushed below 50 to 60ms of latency, even with processing minimized, and compared to an audio signal NOT routed through it (the TV's line out obviously compensates for that, but is only stereo). Back in 2011/2012, when I got Rock Smith, I used a dslr camera to determine the latency of my LCD compared to my old CRT. Just took a snap of a ms counter racing up on both screens (mirrored). Can't recall the exact difference, but definitely much more than 2ms. I measured because I noticed it during gameplay; I'm pretty sensitive to delayed video/audio, but not 2ms sensitive - that's one beat off at 30.000bpm. You can use that technique to check for yourself with a more modern display.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    I specifically asked about monitors. TVs have a huge amount of latency and post processing that’s only recently gotten better. Computer monitors, on the other hand, have long since been very fast. I ask for evidence because I’m not the one presenting the claim and suspect it’s no longer true.
    - archi42 6y ago
      See my edit. I don't have a CRT anymore, so I'm afraid if you're interested in refuting or confirming that claim, you have to test it yourself ;)
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Yep, as a Dance Dance Revolution player, flat screens were pretty unusable from 2000 (at least for PS2 games) until recently because of lag even on settings that "minimize" it on upscale. Similar issue for emulation: for the SNES games on the Wii emulator, the game was much harder because you have to adjust for noticeable lag between your presses and the response. I also saw that on the Virgin in-flight Pac-Man: with their emulator, you have lag that makes the game harder. I was able to get a lot farther on the first try by playing on a classic machine.

lowwave 6y ago

Yes!!!! React/Redux and other SPA client-side rendering framework I'm talking about you! Just because you can, doesn't mean you need to make a page SPA acting like a desktop application. Stop it!!!! Stop making it a fashion industry out of web development. [End of Rant] KISS, SSR is fine for most the time for web pages!!! One exception to the above rule of SPA framework is mithril. However, I understand not everyone can code in LISP/Scheme way. So I don't blame it for not being more used and popular than React camp. However, they seems to have JSX support now, not sure if the performance is still the same when using JSX.

cromwellian 6y ago
Have you seen the performance of the Polymer Shop demo? https://shop.polymer-project.org/ https://shop.polymer-project.org/

cblconfederate 6y ago

computers aren't becoming that faster though. And it s not like new affordances are being added to pages , it's mostly aesthetics and ... trendiness that is driving the crazy monstrosity that is most pages today. Doesn't it have to do more with current software development practices? The requirement for reusable code , and the practice of coders having no loyalty and switching companies every very few years leads to the adoption of anti-optimizing standard practices. If Carmack was making doom today he would be ridiculed for not bundling his functional code and looked down upon for reinventing math functions. The idea that speed doesnt matter is just too prevalent

Sebb767 6y ago
> And it s not like new affordances are being added to pages , it's mostly aesthetics I agree on the point of websites getting slower, but not on that it doesn't add value. Website nowadays replace a lot of what would've been desktop applications ten years ago (see Dropbox, Slack, Google Docs, ...). It's not perfect, of course, - a lot of data now lies on PCs owned by somebody else - but skipping the installation/deinstallation part easily while also knowing that the app only has limited access to my PC is absolutely awesome.

Kiro 6y ago

> I've read a similar article but talking about input latency The conclusion in this article is that it's not getting slower though.