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Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the s

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue in our application that has stumped the rest of the team. I won't be cut any slack by management, in fact it works out the opposite -- as the team lead, I need to be around all day to answer questions, solve high-level problems, and fit in a bit of architecture work around new projects around the edges. I put in more work time for the office now than I did if you added up all my previous office time, lunch time, and commutes. I wouldn't give up my kids for anything but I will be so very happy when this pandemic is safely behind us and we can get back to something approximating what we had before.

Mirioron 6y ago
>I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. Yes, some things come with downsides. I'm sure a lot of people would also want to trade places with you during the happy times you have with your kids. But you can't usually get the benefits without the downsides.
- satyrnein 6y ago
  I think the current situation falls outside the bounds of the regular ups and downs. Most prospective parents were (reasonably) assuming school, childcare, etc would continue to exist.
  - mjangle1985 6y ago
    Exactly, I very much doubt when OP was planning to have children they considered that very well established social norms that make our modern society possible (like traditional schooling and daycare) would not be an option in the future.
- vmception 6y ago
  Yeah, I have the most ideal bachelor penthouse and terrace, living alone during phase I lockdown, but that didn't feel ideal after 2.5 months either. I'm aware of the high chance of having a roommate/partner/children you begin to resent, and that was a useful rationalization given what nurses and police and articles were telling me. But that 5% (or maybe much greater) chance of a fulfilling live-in companion was pretty enticing too. But yes, the upsides rarely come without the downsides.
  - kevstev 6y ago
    The single guys at work are actually the most eager to go back in. I think the loneliness and monotony gets to you after awhile, and most live in kind of dreary small bachelor pad type apartments. I am fortunate to have a wife and a dog and have a bit of outdoor space while also being more or less on a park with friendly neighbors- the restaurant down the street from me opened a take out window with dog treats and the minute or two of daily small talk accompanying my pup begging for a treat just went miles towards satisfying my socialization need. Its pretty much the pandemic on easy mode, and there have been moments where it has not been so easy. Tbh my wife and I have gotten a lot closer through all of this and our relationship has never been better. But obviously YMMV on that and it helps that our jobs have been stable and both our companies are doing well during this.
    - pm90 6y ago
      The single guys are doing fine. We have video games and internet dating. Living with another person, regardless of my relationship with them, is absolutely terrifying to me. We all choose the life we want because of our own individual preferences.
      - losteric 6y ago
        some* - the demographic is not a block, no more than married guys. I'm a deeply introverted single guy, but personally I'm done with this. I don't like video games or TV, and virtual meet ups are so two dimensional... my pets and plants have kept me sane but I need real people again.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jonny_eh 6y ago
And you still have time for HN!
- outside1234 6y ago
  One the most important self care things you can do right now is to take some time for yourself. That is true if you have kids or not. For many of us, HN is one of those things. It is orthogonal to having enough time - it is more about coping.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    I agree until I disagree because it becomes a refresh trigger... but you sound like you have discipline.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    HN is often about feeding your mind. It's about getting the inputs you need. That other stuff is about coming up with outputs, often from a dry well. HN feeds the well for a great many people. (Just a general observation, not really intended to be argumentative per se.)
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      You make a good point. I'll keep it in mind when I'm feeding my mind from the well of HN :)
jbay808 6y ago
(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  “Trade places with” is meant figuratively here, not literally.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    Even figuratively it's obviously going to read as mean to someone who wants but cannot conceive children. Or at least that's how I read it, a polite reminder to be a little sensitive when it comes to such things...
- biotech 6y ago
  Jeez, it's just an expression. They're just saying that it would be way easier to not have to worry about kids at home right now. You're reading way to far into it. They are not saying that they would literally want to trade places, which should be obvious from the statement "I wouldn't give up my kids for anything"
  - dumpsterdiver 6y ago
    That doesn't change the fact that it's still painful to hear when you're wallowing in misery alone. I second this. Say what you mean.
- awinder 6y ago
  It means if he ran into the Zoltar machine he’d definitely give it a couple of whacks
AlexCoventry 6y ago
> the obvious downsides They're not obvious to me... What are the downsides?
- neltnerb 6y ago
  I don't have em, but having adult children when you're older and the experience of being a parent both seem like they're intrinsically valuable. I have a hard time believing any 18 year long cohabitation wouldn't form something of value, and struggling to deal with a problem together is a textbook team building exercise, for better or worse.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  To switch places, the implication is I'd not have my kids. I can't fathom a life without them. Perhaps it didn't need to be added as a qualification.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rhizome 6y ago
A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo and has subsidies involved and all kinds of subtleties that I don't know about but still aren't expensive. And I'm not saying "move to France," I'm saying that tax dollars in the US should be going toward making the lives of tax payers easier, especially in a nationwide/global situation like a pandemic.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  Yes but isn't that childcare in france gone?
  - MrGando 6y ago
    no it's back. It will probably be gone again if things keep spiraling out of control, but child-care is back in France.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      It is always funny thinking that outside of the US a lot of places are able to cautiously resume normal life while here we’re all either terrified or pretending nothing is wrong.
      - prh8 6y ago
        France and Spain are also currently experiencing big spikes again. We are struggling in the US for sure (especially due to the extremity of most opinions like you mention), but so are other places.
        MrGando 6y ago
        They are having difficulties for very different reasons.
tomcam 6y ago
> This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Ha, I don't disagree! Getting some stairs in is good for my health. My point was more about how disruptive it is to try and juggle activities happening simultaneously all over the house. My office is upstairs, my kids do schoolwork at the dining table downstairs. We're working out a schedule where my wife and I will alternate between our offices and taking our laptops down to sit at the dining table next to the kids, but it's barely controlled chaos right now. It'll settle down a lot as everyone figures out the new routine, but it's never going to be as simple as getting them dressed, fed, and out the door to the school for the day.
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Oh man, I feel you. My clever solution has been large houses and kids who are used to a work-at-home dad... but yeah
dumb1224 6y ago
The big downside for me having a small child at home is that I could not concentrate on a task for more than half and hour, which is essential for research work. I had to go over stuff again and again because once my thoughts broken I need to follow long trails to pick it up again. I enjoy spending time with family but I have a real urge for uninterrupted work now.

Mirioron 6y ago

>I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. Yes, some things come with downsides. I'm sure a lot of people would also want to trade places with you during the happy times you have with your kids. But you can't usually get the benefits without the downsides.

satyrnein 6y ago
I think the current situation falls outside the bounds of the regular ups and downs. Most prospective parents were (reasonably) assuming school, childcare, etc would continue to exist.
- mjangle1985 6y ago
  Exactly, I very much doubt when OP was planning to have children they considered that very well established social norms that make our modern society possible (like traditional schooling and daycare) would not be an option in the future.
vmception 6y ago
Yeah, I have the most ideal bachelor penthouse and terrace, living alone during phase I lockdown, but that didn't feel ideal after 2.5 months either. I'm aware of the high chance of having a roommate/partner/children you begin to resent, and that was a useful rationalization given what nurses and police and articles were telling me. But that 5% (or maybe much greater) chance of a fulfilling live-in companion was pretty enticing too. But yes, the upsides rarely come without the downsides.
- kevstev 6y ago
  The single guys at work are actually the most eager to go back in. I think the loneliness and monotony gets to you after awhile, and most live in kind of dreary small bachelor pad type apartments. I am fortunate to have a wife and a dog and have a bit of outdoor space while also being more or less on a park with friendly neighbors- the restaurant down the street from me opened a take out window with dog treats and the minute or two of daily small talk accompanying my pup begging for a treat just went miles towards satisfying my socialization need. Its pretty much the pandemic on easy mode, and there have been moments where it has not been so easy. Tbh my wife and I have gotten a lot closer through all of this and our relationship has never been better. But obviously YMMV on that and it helps that our jobs have been stable and both our companies are doing well during this.
  - pm90 6y ago
    The single guys are doing fine. We have video games and internet dating. Living with another person, regardless of my relationship with them, is absolutely terrifying to me. We all choose the life we want because of our own individual preferences.
    - losteric 6y ago
      some* - the demographic is not a block, no more than married guys. I'm a deeply introverted single guy, but personally I'm done with this. I don't like video games or TV, and virtual meet ups are so two dimensional... my pets and plants have kept me sane but I need real people again.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jonny_eh 6y ago

And you still have time for HN!

outside1234 6y ago
One the most important self care things you can do right now is to take some time for yourself. That is true if you have kids or not. For many of us, HN is one of those things. It is orthogonal to having enough time - it is more about coping.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  I agree until I disagree because it becomes a refresh trigger... but you sound like you have discipline.
rootusrootus 6y ago
Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  HN is often about feeding your mind. It's about getting the inputs you need. That other stuff is about coming up with outputs, often from a dry well. HN feeds the well for a great many people. (Just a general observation, not really intended to be argumentative per se.)
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    You make a good point. I'll keep it in mind when I'm feeding my mind from the well of HN :)

jbay808 6y ago

(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
“Trade places with” is meant figuratively here, not literally.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- neltnerb 6y ago
  Even figuratively it's obviously going to read as mean to someone who wants but cannot conceive children. Or at least that's how I read it, a polite reminder to be a little sensitive when it comes to such things...
biotech 6y ago
Jeez, it's just an expression. They're just saying that it would be way easier to not have to worry about kids at home right now. You're reading way to far into it. They are not saying that they would literally want to trade places, which should be obvious from the statement "I wouldn't give up my kids for anything"
- dumpsterdiver 6y ago
  That doesn't change the fact that it's still painful to hear when you're wallowing in misery alone. I second this. Say what you mean.
awinder 6y ago
It means if he ran into the Zoltar machine he’d definitely give it a couple of whacks

AlexCoventry 6y ago

> the obvious downsides They're not obvious to me... What are the downsides?

neltnerb 6y ago
I don't have em, but having adult children when you're older and the experience of being a parent both seem like they're intrinsically valuable. I have a hard time believing any 18 year long cohabitation wouldn't form something of value, and struggling to deal with a problem together is a textbook team building exercise, for better or worse.
rootusrootus 6y ago
To switch places, the implication is I'd not have my kids. I can't fathom a life without them. Perhaps it didn't need to be added as a qualification.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

rhizome 6y ago

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo and has subsidies involved and all kinds of subtleties that I don't know about but still aren't expensive. And I'm not saying "move to France," I'm saying that tax dollars in the US should be going toward making the lives of tax payers easier, especially in a nationwide/global situation like a pandemic.

shiftpgdn 6y ago
Yes but isn't that childcare in france gone?
- MrGando 6y ago
  no it's back. It will probably be gone again if things keep spiraling out of control, but child-care is back in France.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    It is always funny thinking that outside of the US a lot of places are able to cautiously resume normal life while here we’re all either terrified or pretending nothing is wrong.
    - prh8 6y ago
      France and Spain are also currently experiencing big spikes again. We are struggling in the US for sure (especially due to the extremity of most opinions like you mention), but so are other places.
      - MrGando 6y ago
        They are having difficulties for very different reasons.

tomcam 6y ago

> This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)

rootusrootus 6y ago
Ha, I don't disagree! Getting some stairs in is good for my health. My point was more about how disruptive it is to try and juggle activities happening simultaneously all over the house. My office is upstairs, my kids do schoolwork at the dining table downstairs. We're working out a schedule where my wife and I will alternate between our offices and taking our laptops down to sit at the dining table next to the kids, but it's barely controlled chaos right now. It'll settle down a lot as everyone figures out the new routine, but it's never going to be as simple as getting them dressed, fed, and out the door to the school for the day.
- tomcam 6y ago
  Oh man, I feel you. My clever solution has been large houses and kids who are used to a work-at-home dad... but yeah

dumb1224 6y ago

The big downside for me having a small child at home is that I could not concentrate on a task for more than half and hour, which is essential for research work. I had to go over stuff again and again because once my thoughts broken I need to follow long trails to pick it up again. I enjoy spending time with family but I have a real urge for uninterrupted work now.