3 ms·

Menus ≠ filesystems. POSIX will last forever because it’s simple, standard, solid, portable and fairly flexible (see FUSE). DOS will last forever because inert

Menus ≠ filesystems. POSIX will last forever because it’s simple, standard, solid, portable and fairly flexible (see FUSE). DOS will last forever because inertia is the only reason Windows still exists, and MS knows this and prioritizes backwards compatibility, eg. it’s still basically impossible to name a file CON on Windows 10 because of backwards compatibility.

kccqzy 6y ago
That's a shortsighted and very programmer-centric view of what a filesystem is. Increasingly we are seeing a bifurcation between the kind of filesystems developers use for programming (POSIX style) and the kind of "filesystems" being exposed to end users. I put the word in quotes because they are not thought of as filesystems by its traditional definition. But it's a reality that many users now think of these siloed-by-app systems as the real filesystem. The iOS menu mentioned by GP is a great example because that's what's user facing, not the developer-facing one like /private/var/mobile/Containers/blah-blah-blah. Today even many developers won't have to deal with POSIX-style filesystems that often, since they generally write code to store structured data in a database (sqlite on mobile, more sophisticated ones on the server side) while large blobs are stored in services like S3, making the idea of a POSIX filesystem quaint. My own prediction is that POSIX filesystems in another decade or so will be like assembly language today: it's still there, still being taught and learned, but users and a majority of developers won't need to know about it.
- boogies 6y ago
  I think it’s very typical of very casual and exploitable users to have product names deeply connected with a certain activity — eg. using Google or Zoom as verbs — and “cloud” storage companies would like them to think of their brand name as the main storage area on their devices (and certainly not as just rented space on normal drives in a big room full of someone else’s computers), and I think they are and will be successful, and these users won’t think of them with generic terms like “filesystem”.
- _jal 6y ago
  Casual users' confusion about the presentation of technical details is a different conversation. This one is about actual filesystems. It may well be that end users are abstracted away from their filesystems, but you seem to assume both that 'The Cloud' is the natural end-state of systems evolution and that everyone comes along for the ride. I don't think either of those are true.
- anthk 6y ago
  Palm tried what you said. Now Palm is dead.
jborean93 6y ago
echo "cough" > \\?\C:\temp\COM edit: meant CON not COM
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> eg. it’s still basically impossible to name a file CON on Windows 10 because of backwards compatibility. > echo "cough" > \\?\C:\temp\COM I think he's referring to CON not COM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS#Reserved_device_names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS#Reserved_device_names > There are reserved device names in DOS that cannot be used as filenames regardless of extension as they are occupied by built-in character devices.... > The reserved names are: > CON, for console
  - boogies 6y ago
    Yes, I mistakenly had COM in the original comment, before editing it a while ago but maybe before jborean93’s last refresh before commenting.
  - jborean93 6y ago
    That's my bad (I thought it looked weird when I typed it). Still the same syntax works with CON and any other reserved DOS devices echo "hey DOS" > \\?\C:\temp\CON del \\?\C:\temp\CON While it can be "trivially" done, it's a hit or miss if any application actually supports it. You effectively need to deal with the NT path prefix \\?\ when dealing with the Win32 APIs to be able to open a handle to the file. The prefix essentially tells Win32 to back off and get the handle directly from the NT object manager.
icedchai 6y ago
DOS had several reserved file names. Back in the BBS days, I remember kids uploading files named "CLOCK$" to lock up BBSes.
pjmlp 6y ago
Windows still exists because no FOSS UNIX clone can get their act together in what means to provide a proper desktop experience both to users, as well as developers. KDE and GNOME are quite close to it, but keep being ostracized, so one is left with Android and ChromeOS where the Linux kernel is an implementation detail.

kccqzy 6y ago

That's a shortsighted and very programmer-centric view of what a filesystem is. Increasingly we are seeing a bifurcation between the kind of filesystems developers use for programming (POSIX style) and the kind of "filesystems" being exposed to end users. I put the word in quotes because they are not thought of as filesystems by its traditional definition. But it's a reality that many users now think of these siloed-by-app systems as the real filesystem. The iOS menu mentioned by GP is a great example because that's what's user facing, not the developer-facing one like /private/var/mobile/Containers/blah-blah-blah. Today even many developers won't have to deal with POSIX-style filesystems that often, since they generally write code to store structured data in a database (sqlite on mobile, more sophisticated ones on the server side) while large blobs are stored in services like S3, making the idea of a POSIX filesystem quaint. My own prediction is that POSIX filesystems in another decade or so will be like assembly language today: it's still there, still being taught and learned, but users and a majority of developers won't need to know about it.

boogies 6y ago
I think it’s very typical of very casual and exploitable users to have product names deeply connected with a certain activity — eg. using Google or Zoom as verbs — and “cloud” storage companies would like them to think of their brand name as the main storage area on their devices (and certainly not as just rented space on normal drives in a big room full of someone else’s computers), and I think they are and will be successful, and these users won’t think of them with generic terms like “filesystem”.
_jal 6y ago
Casual users' confusion about the presentation of technical details is a different conversation. This one is about actual filesystems. It may well be that end users are abstracted away from their filesystems, but you seem to assume both that 'The Cloud' is the natural end-state of systems evolution and that everyone comes along for the ride. I don't think either of those are true.
anthk 6y ago
Palm tried what you said. Now Palm is dead.

jborean93 6y ago

echo "cough" > \\?\C:\temp\COM edit: meant CON not COM

ardy42 6y ago
>> eg. it’s still basically impossible to name a file CON on Windows 10 because of backwards compatibility. > echo "cough" > \\?\C:\temp\COM I think he's referring to CON not COM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS#Reserved_device_names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS#Reserved_device_names > There are reserved device names in DOS that cannot be used as filenames regardless of extension as they are occupied by built-in character devices.... > The reserved names are: > CON, for console
- boogies 6y ago
  Yes, I mistakenly had COM in the original comment, before editing it a while ago but maybe before jborean93’s last refresh before commenting.
- jborean93 6y ago
  That's my bad (I thought it looked weird when I typed it). Still the same syntax works with CON and any other reserved DOS devices echo "hey DOS" > \\?\C:\temp\CON del \\?\C:\temp\CON While it can be "trivially" done, it's a hit or miss if any application actually supports it. You effectively need to deal with the NT path prefix \\?\ when dealing with the Win32 APIs to be able to open a handle to the file. The prefix essentially tells Win32 to back off and get the handle directly from the NT object manager.

icedchai 6y ago

DOS had several reserved file names. Back in the BBS days, I remember kids uploading files named "CLOCK$" to lock up BBSes.

pjmlp 6y ago

Windows still exists because no FOSS UNIX clone can get their act together in what means to provide a proper desktop experience both to users, as well as developers. KDE and GNOME are quite close to it, but keep being ostracized, so one is left with Android and ChromeOS where the Linux kernel is an implementation detail.