4 ms·

I wasn't evaluating good or bad, just don't tell me that the Chinese people can be truly said to value anything when their government doesn't allow them to free

I wasn't evaluating good or bad, just don't tell me that the Chinese people can be truly said to value anything when their government doesn't allow them to freely express anything other than what the CCP values. You asked why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? Here's your answer. I'll leave your beautifully written apologia of totalitarianism alone.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
And yet when people express their opinions outside of China, where the Chinese government does not control what they say, you still choose to believe only those opinions that fit your preconceptions. China is not "totalitarian". There's a huge range between "fully free" and "totalitarian", and while China is more on the latter side than most western countries, it's not all the way there, and is way more to the former side than the USSR was. What sort of totalitarian regime lets people freely travel abroad where they can learn about all the things that are banned in the home country? 40 years ago you may have been right to describe China as totalitarian. Get on with the times.
- themacguffinman 6y ago
  Like I mentioned before, China does pursue dissidents beyond its borders. Look up Operation Fox Hunt. China bans dissident websites and internet platforms that don't comply with their censorship, they actively censor dissenting speech and amplify propaganda on social media like Douyin (owned by ByteDance, whose CEO also publicly pledged to work towards "Strengthening the work of Party construction, carrying out education among our entire staff on the “four consciousnesses,” socialist core values, guidance of public opinion"; oh, fun fact, ByteDance owns TikTok), they also monitor private communications on WeChat and ban apps that don't allow this, remove protesting apps from the Chinese iOS App Store (eg. HK), bans foreign journalism, arrests heads of publications critical of the regime (eg. Jimmy Lai), tracks and detains ethnic religious practitioners (eg. Uighurs) and seizes authority over local religious chapters (eg. Catholic church), declares that it is the “basic responsibility” of schools to strengthen students’ sense of national identity (said by the Education Bureau, reported by SCMP) and revises the history curriculum to omit embarrassing sections of China's dynastic history. So when someone leaves China to go abroad, they've just left a country that controls what information they can consume online and from mainstream news, controls what they can publish online and say on social media, mandatorily monitors and punishes what they say in private to their own friends and family via p2p services like WeChat and Zoom, controls what religions you're allowed to practice, controls religious authorities, and ensures your education builds up your nationalism. Sure, they don't control what they say outside the US (sometimes). They just control everything else that forms the very foundations of thought, speech, identity, and character. Seems pretty total to me. Maybe I'm just not with the times enough to understand your convincing argument that they're not totalitarian because they allow people to travel. I won't mince words: there is zero legitimacy to the public support of a totalitarian regime by the subjects inside the totalitarian regime that controls and grooms them.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

And yet when people express their opinions outside of China, where the Chinese government does not control what they say, you still choose to believe only those opinions that fit your preconceptions. China is not "totalitarian". There's a huge range between "fully free" and "totalitarian", and while China is more on the latter side than most western countries, it's not all the way there, and is way more to the former side than the USSR was. What sort of totalitarian regime lets people freely travel abroad where they can learn about all the things that are banned in the home country? 40 years ago you may have been right to describe China as totalitarian. Get on with the times.

themacguffinman 6y ago
Like I mentioned before, China does pursue dissidents beyond its borders. Look up Operation Fox Hunt. China bans dissident websites and internet platforms that don't comply with their censorship, they actively censor dissenting speech and amplify propaganda on social media like Douyin (owned by ByteDance, whose CEO also publicly pledged to work towards "Strengthening the work of Party construction, carrying out education among our entire staff on the “four consciousnesses,” socialist core values, guidance of public opinion"; oh, fun fact, ByteDance owns TikTok), they also monitor private communications on WeChat and ban apps that don't allow this, remove protesting apps from the Chinese iOS App Store (eg. HK), bans foreign journalism, arrests heads of publications critical of the regime (eg. Jimmy Lai), tracks and detains ethnic religious practitioners (eg. Uighurs) and seizes authority over local religious chapters (eg. Catholic church), declares that it is the “basic responsibility” of schools to strengthen students’ sense of national identity (said by the Education Bureau, reported by SCMP) and revises the history curriculum to omit embarrassing sections of China's dynastic history. So when someone leaves China to go abroad, they've just left a country that controls what information they can consume online and from mainstream news, controls what they can publish online and say on social media, mandatorily monitors and punishes what they say in private to their own friends and family via p2p services like WeChat and Zoom, controls what religions you're allowed to practice, controls religious authorities, and ensures your education builds up your nationalism. Sure, they don't control what they say outside the US (sometimes). They just control everything else that forms the very foundations of thought, speech, identity, and character. Seems pretty total to me. Maybe I'm just not with the times enough to understand your convincing argument that they're not totalitarian because they allow people to travel. I won't mince words: there is zero legitimacy to the public support of a totalitarian regime by the subjects inside the totalitarian regime that controls and grooms them.