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As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they we

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing on your actual job, and then on top of that oh yeah there is still a mildly terrifying pandemic going on with an uncertain outcome. I work in the NYC area, and everyone is tight on space here as it is. I barely held it together during all this, how parents did with young children is beyond me. Maybe I am making assumptions here on the general political leanings of those here, but if you are talking about supporting anything like Medicare for all, UBI, BLM, PPP or even just support the Democratic party in general, pulling a little extra weight for those in a time of need is IMHO a relatively small ask that you as an individual can implement compared to those agendas.

rootusrootus 6y ago
Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue in our application that has stumped the rest of the team. I won't be cut any slack by management, in fact it works out the opposite -- as the team lead, I need to be around all day to answer questions, solve high-level problems, and fit in a bit of architecture work around new projects around the edges. I put in more work time for the office now than I did if you added up all my previous office time, lunch time, and commutes. I wouldn't give up my kids for anything but I will be so very happy when this pandemic is safely behind us and we can get back to something approximating what we had before.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  >I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. Yes, some things come with downsides. I'm sure a lot of people would also want to trade places with you during the happy times you have with your kids. But you can't usually get the benefits without the downsides.
  - satyrnein 6y ago
    I think the current situation falls outside the bounds of the regular ups and downs. Most prospective parents were (reasonably) assuming school, childcare, etc would continue to exist.
    - mjangle1985 6y ago
      Exactly, I very much doubt when OP was planning to have children they considered that very well established social norms that make our modern society possible (like traditional schooling and daycare) would not be an option in the future.
  - vmception 6y ago
    Yeah, I have the most ideal bachelor penthouse and terrace, living alone during phase I lockdown, but that didn't feel ideal after 2.5 months either. I'm aware of the high chance of having a roommate/partner/children you begin to resent, and that was a useful rationalization given what nurses and police and articles were telling me. But that 5% (or maybe much greater) chance of a fulfilling live-in companion was pretty enticing too. But yes, the upsides rarely come without the downsides.
    - kevstev 6y ago
      The single guys at work are actually the most eager to go back in. I think the loneliness and monotony gets to you after awhile, and most live in kind of dreary small bachelor pad type apartments. I am fortunate to have a wife and a dog and have a bit of outdoor space while also being more or less on a park with friendly neighbors- the restaurant down the street from me opened a take out window with dog treats and the minute or two of daily small talk accompanying my pup begging for a treat just went miles towards satisfying my socialization need. Its pretty much the pandemic on easy mode, and there have been moments where it has not been so easy. Tbh my wife and I have gotten a lot closer through all of this and our relationship has never been better. But obviously YMMV on that and it helps that our jobs have been stable and both our companies are doing well during this.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  And you still have time for HN!
  - outside1234 6y ago
    One the most important self care things you can do right now is to take some time for yourself. That is true if you have kids or not. For many of us, HN is one of those things. It is orthogonal to having enough time - it is more about coping.
    - neltnerb 6y ago
      I agree until I disagree because it becomes a refresh trigger... but you sound like you have discipline.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      HN is often about feeding your mind. It's about getting the inputs you need. That other stuff is about coming up with outputs, often from a dry well. HN feeds the well for a great many people. (Just a general observation, not really intended to be argumentative per se.)
      - rootusrootus 6y ago
        You make a good point. I'll keep it in mind when I'm feeding my mind from the well of HN :)
- jbay808 6y ago
  (Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    “Trade places with” is meant figuratively here, not literally.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - neltnerb 6y ago
      Even figuratively it's obviously going to read as mean to someone who wants but cannot conceive children. Or at least that's how I read it, a polite reminder to be a little sensitive when it comes to such things...
  - biotech 6y ago
    Jeez, it's just an expression. They're just saying that it would be way easier to not have to worry about kids at home right now. You're reading way to far into it. They are not saying that they would literally want to trade places, which should be obvious from the statement "I wouldn't give up my kids for anything"
    - dumpsterdiver 6y ago
      That doesn't change the fact that it's still painful to hear when you're wallowing in misery alone. I second this. Say what you mean.
  - awinder 6y ago
    It means if he ran into the Zoltar machine he’d definitely give it a couple of whacks
- AlexCoventry 6y ago
  > the obvious downsides They're not obvious to me... What are the downsides?
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    I don't have em, but having adult children when you're older and the experience of being a parent both seem like they're intrinsically valuable. I have a hard time believing any 18 year long cohabitation wouldn't form something of value, and struggling to deal with a problem together is a textbook team building exercise, for better or worse.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    To switch places, the implication is I'd not have my kids. I can't fathom a life without them. Perhaps it didn't need to be added as a qualification.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- rhizome 6y ago
  A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo and has subsidies involved and all kinds of subtleties that I don't know about but still aren't expensive. And I'm not saying "move to France," I'm saying that tax dollars in the US should be going toward making the lives of tax payers easier, especially in a nationwide/global situation like a pandemic.
  - shiftpgdn 6y ago
    Yes but isn't that childcare in france gone?
    - MrGando 6y ago
      no it's back. It will probably be gone again if things keep spiraling out of control, but child-care is back in France.
      - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        It is always funny thinking that outside of the US a lot of places are able to cautiously resume normal life while here we’re all either terrified or pretending nothing is wrong.
        prh8 6y ago
        France and Spain are also currently experiencing big spikes again. We are struggling in the US for sure (especially due to the extremity of most opinions like you mention), but so are other places.
        MrGando 6y ago
        They are having difficulties for very different reasons.
- tomcam 6y ago
  > This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    Ha, I don't disagree! Getting some stairs in is good for my health. My point was more about how disruptive it is to try and juggle activities happening simultaneously all over the house. My office is upstairs, my kids do schoolwork at the dining table downstairs. We're working out a schedule where my wife and I will alternate between our offices and taking our laptops down to sit at the dining table next to the kids, but it's barely controlled chaos right now. It'll settle down a lot as everyone figures out the new routine, but it's never going to be as simple as getting them dressed, fed, and out the door to the school for the day.
    - tomcam 6y ago
      Oh man, I feel you. My clever solution has been large houses and kids who are used to a work-at-home dad... but yeah
- dumb1224 6y ago
  The big downside for me having a small child at home is that I could not concentrate on a task for more than half and hour, which is essential for research work. I had to go over stuff again and again because once my thoughts broken I need to follow long trails to pick it up again. I enjoy spending time with family but I have a real urge for uninterrupted work now.
eanzenberg 6y ago
How do social services help? The article is about parents with jobs adjusting or continuing to adjust to working from home with kids there. Social services as you listed are primarily for people who aren’t working.
- mitchdoogle 6y ago
  They are saying anyone who supports those things should be willing to tolerate having to do a bit of extra work to make up for those in less ideal situations. Basically, if you talk the talk about the country providing more social goodness, you should walk the walk in your own workplace when it comes to social goodness.
dheera 6y ago
IMO the real broken part of this system is that people are not getting legally-protected personal time. A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children. We need to be prioritizing peoples' personal time and respecting however they choose to use it. Regardless whether someone chooses to spend their personal time raising kids or raising orphans in an orphanage or rescuing animals or reading books or hiking the wilderness or community service or being social and sleeping and watching movies, all of these things are good for their own mental health, and we need to not discriminate between these choices in giving people their personal time. It's when people are working till 11pm and someone says "I need to leave at 6 to make food for my kids" that the resentment happens. If everyone got off at 6, there wouldn't be any resentment.
- mjangle1985 6y ago
  >It's when people are working till 11pm and someone says "I need to leave at 6 to make food for my kids" that the resentment happens. If everyone got off at 6, there wouldn't be any resentment. What would you propose then? The parents starve their children? What an absurd thing to have resentment over. Do you believe the parents don't feel guilt over having to duck out early while others without children continue to work? I know when I have to do it I do. It's a pretty terrible place to be stuck between letting your kids down and letting your coworkers down. What an awful thing to build resentment over.
  - dheera 6y ago
    Please re-read the full comment. I am not expressing resent, I am explaining why resentment occurs in the masses. > What would you propose then? I proposed a solution, in the very first line of my comment: "legally-protected personal time"
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Most people on this site can already work a 40-ish hour week and not get fired. They also probably won’t advance as quickly as someone with equal talent/ability who puts in extra hours when needed. It would offend many (including me) if the law prohibited people from working as hard/long as they wanted. If you want legal protection to prevent being you fired specifically because you don’t want to work more than 40 hours a week, I’d 100% support that. If you want legal protection to prevent me from working harder than that, I’m 100% opposed.
MakeUsersWant 6y ago
Mix in special-needs children who need constant one-on-one support, young siblings, and dual career parents. Covid stress falls completely off the radar.
- mrexroad 6y ago
  Yeah... this. Not all situations at home are equal. Wish folks at work would understand that. ... school aged kids outnumber my partner and I. IEP and 504 support has yet to prove effective remote. But it’s the effort to mitigate the developmental regression that keeps me up at night. Cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. isn’t cheap either. ... working from the 1950’s garage with ambient temps just shy of 100F last week (no space to work inside). ... partner is now out of work too, but I guess it’s a good thing for ensure all the kids attend “their meetings”? It can always get worse, and likely will. I dunno, just saying—-yeah, i agree. COVID stress isn’t even on the radar.
  - hunta2097 6y ago
    Hello fellow garage-worker!
quadrifoliate 6y ago
> Maybe I am making assumptions here on the general political leanings of those here, but if you are talking about supporting anything like Medicare for all, UBI, BLM, PPP or even just support the Democratic party in general, pulling a little extra weight for those in a time of need is IMHO a relatively small ask that you as an individual can implement compared to those agendas. I suspect a fair number of the complainers are people with Democratic leanings, and I think I can describe their thought process to you. I think their problem is that a private company is doing this, not the Government. Suppose someone has to be a caregiver for an elderly relative during COVID. Facebook probably won't offer them 10 weeks for paid leave for doing this, because Facebook's internal cost-benefit metrics tell them that it's not useful. That's why people are resentful – a private company should not be in charge of deciding who gets time to deal with changes as fundamental as this in society. Policies like Medicare for all, compulsory maternity and paternity leave, or caregiver leave implemented by the Government (ideally) take into account the wishes of society as a whole, not a large private company like Facebook. For example, I think caregiver leave would be very popular due to the aging population of the US being a large section of voters, there are already tax credits starting for the same thing. I am personally fine with giving as much time as is needed for people with families as well as people in a bunch of other situations. Life is complex and we need to help out each other as much as possible. But I fear that the ruthless utilitarianism of most American corporations doesn't play well with this worldview, leading to resentments like the article describes.
- zarkov99 6y ago
  I think you are on to something. Many people are happy to be generous with others time and money but less so with their own.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    That's not it exactly. It's more about everyone pulling equal weight, not about getting freebies at others' expense. It's also about the correct realization that some problems can only be solved by the actions of society as a whole, that individual choices alone cannot sufficiently solve the problem. E.g. I alone can't solve the problem of catastrophic climate change no matter how green I live in my own life.
briandear 6y ago
The thing is, there is a contingent of people that support the Democratic Party assuming they benefit or, at the very least, have someone else pay for it. As an example, if you took a cross section of supporters, if they had their taxes increase by 100% to support $some_policy, they would be less inclined to support that increase. But if you say “the rich” should pay for XYZ, then support grows substantially. There are those that would pay higher taxes for altruistic reasons, however, those people are certainly welcome to write a check to the Treasury — but they don’t. When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. If you aren’t charitable to your cubical mate, it’s ironic that one can expect charity for “society.” It’s easy to be charitable when someone else is paying for it, either with money or work. In other words, it’s easier to spend other people’s money and time.
- yakz 6y ago
  I don't see how this applies to the Democratic Party any more than the Republican Party.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  >When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. Yes, because I'm not going to put my family at a disadvantage versus others in society unless everyone is going to chip in. That's a perfectly reasonable position to hold.
  - briandear 6y ago
    But everyone doesn’t chip in. 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes.
    - Cd00d 6y ago
      That's because they make so little money that paying taxes would impact their ability to feed themselves. This comes up just enough I wonder - are there really people that wish to revoke citizen privileges because you don't earn enough money?
moron4hire 6y ago
Nitpick: institutional schooling over Zoom is not the same thing as home schooling. The teaching methods are different, the culture is very different, and home schooling is normally a choice that families make, not something foisted on them.
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
I dont think this is a wild assumption. It is well documented that financial support as well as the policies of the democratic party (Defund, UBI etc) is heavy in the FAANGs particularly FB and Google[1] Starting from that premise, one can assume that any sample drawn of a subpopulation that includes single employees will be heavily titled towards (D)[2] Therefore, one notes that the same people that support most (D) platform policies today, are very much against parental benefits. How to reconcile this? Here is where we get to the uncomfortable zone: Supporters of defund, UBI, BLM etc are happy... as long as the cost of said policies impose a burden that is at least as heavy on them, as everyone else. However, when they are asked to sacrifice themselves only, they fail to report to duty. In other words, their public position (everyone must show empathy to others) clashes with their private one (self empathy to their tribe) Problem: when your private beliefs clash with your public persona, this invalidates your public persona, not your private beliefs. [1] campaign contribution disclosures by company. [2] see voter trends by age group.
mcv 6y ago
I'm fortunate to be working for a company that requires everybody to work from home. You need to request to come to the office. They did this before the Dutch government recommended it, and will probably continue this until well after most companies have gone back to the office. That said, the lockdown in April when he had to basically homeschool our kids was tough. It was tough despite the fact that our normally one-evening-every-two-weeks babysitter was helping out three days a week (she lost all her other jobs and couldn't go to university, so this helped her too), and we've got a big house. I can't imagine what it must be like for families in small houses without this kind of help. This week we're keeping our youngest home from school again because he has a cough (probably just a cold, but you can't send him to school this way), and again it's incredibly disruptive to our work. But you've got to deal. There are people who have it much worse, we just need to be understanding towards each other until this is over. Maybe this is a badly needed course in empathy.
relativitypro 6y ago
Well. I’d like to have had kids, and am jealous of those that have. While the pandemic is a curveball, people With kids are investing in their future and continuing their families. I think the frustration comes from the perspective that your personal life is enriched with kids, while some of the pressing daily grind is put off your shoulders. It isn’t humane to say, but it also isn’t meritorious.
bumby 6y ago
I'm in favor of many of the social safety nets so I'm playing devils advocate here to a certain extent. Also, this is probably a (largely) US-centrism take. I think the US is still largely affected by the rugged-individualistic psyche. There was an HN article yesterday that studied the personality traits in the previous mountain/frontier and indicated these ideals persist, more in some areas than others. So I think this impacts the mindset, particularly when an individual is asked to sacrifice for the better of the group. "Why should I pay for their life choices?" they may say. If I'm in a position to contribute more than my share, I am grateful to be in that position to a certain extent. I personally feel there is still an individual benefit by create a more stable society but I can also empathize with those who don't feel the same.

rootusrootus 6y ago

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue in our application that has stumped the rest of the team. I won't be cut any slack by management, in fact it works out the opposite -- as the team lead, I need to be around all day to answer questions, solve high-level problems, and fit in a bit of architecture work around new projects around the edges. I put in more work time for the office now than I did if you added up all my previous office time, lunch time, and commutes. I wouldn't give up my kids for anything but I will be so very happy when this pandemic is safely behind us and we can get back to something approximating what we had before.

Mirioron 6y ago
>I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. Yes, some things come with downsides. I'm sure a lot of people would also want to trade places with you during the happy times you have with your kids. But you can't usually get the benefits without the downsides.
- satyrnein 6y ago
  I think the current situation falls outside the bounds of the regular ups and downs. Most prospective parents were (reasonably) assuming school, childcare, etc would continue to exist.
  - mjangle1985 6y ago
    Exactly, I very much doubt when OP was planning to have children they considered that very well established social norms that make our modern society possible (like traditional schooling and daycare) would not be an option in the future.
- vmception 6y ago
  Yeah, I have the most ideal bachelor penthouse and terrace, living alone during phase I lockdown, but that didn't feel ideal after 2.5 months either. I'm aware of the high chance of having a roommate/partner/children you begin to resent, and that was a useful rationalization given what nurses and police and articles were telling me. But that 5% (or maybe much greater) chance of a fulfilling live-in companion was pretty enticing too. But yes, the upsides rarely come without the downsides.
  - kevstev 6y ago
    The single guys at work are actually the most eager to go back in. I think the loneliness and monotony gets to you after awhile, and most live in kind of dreary small bachelor pad type apartments. I am fortunate to have a wife and a dog and have a bit of outdoor space while also being more or less on a park with friendly neighbors- the restaurant down the street from me opened a take out window with dog treats and the minute or two of daily small talk accompanying my pup begging for a treat just went miles towards satisfying my socialization need. Its pretty much the pandemic on easy mode, and there have been moments where it has not been so easy. Tbh my wife and I have gotten a lot closer through all of this and our relationship has never been better. But obviously YMMV on that and it helps that our jobs have been stable and both our companies are doing well during this.
jonny_eh 6y ago
And you still have time for HN!
- outside1234 6y ago
  One the most important self care things you can do right now is to take some time for yourself. That is true if you have kids or not. For many of us, HN is one of those things. It is orthogonal to having enough time - it is more about coping.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    I agree until I disagree because it becomes a refresh trigger... but you sound like you have discipline.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    HN is often about feeding your mind. It's about getting the inputs you need. That other stuff is about coming up with outputs, often from a dry well. HN feeds the well for a great many people. (Just a general observation, not really intended to be argumentative per se.)
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      You make a good point. I'll keep it in mind when I'm feeding my mind from the well of HN :)
jbay808 6y ago
(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  “Trade places with” is meant figuratively here, not literally.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    Even figuratively it's obviously going to read as mean to someone who wants but cannot conceive children. Or at least that's how I read it, a polite reminder to be a little sensitive when it comes to such things...
- biotech 6y ago
  Jeez, it's just an expression. They're just saying that it would be way easier to not have to worry about kids at home right now. You're reading way to far into it. They are not saying that they would literally want to trade places, which should be obvious from the statement "I wouldn't give up my kids for anything"
  - dumpsterdiver 6y ago
    That doesn't change the fact that it's still painful to hear when you're wallowing in misery alone. I second this. Say what you mean.
- awinder 6y ago
  It means if he ran into the Zoltar machine he’d definitely give it a couple of whacks
AlexCoventry 6y ago
> the obvious downsides They're not obvious to me... What are the downsides?
- neltnerb 6y ago
  I don't have em, but having adult children when you're older and the experience of being a parent both seem like they're intrinsically valuable. I have a hard time believing any 18 year long cohabitation wouldn't form something of value, and struggling to deal with a problem together is a textbook team building exercise, for better or worse.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  To switch places, the implication is I'd not have my kids. I can't fathom a life without them. Perhaps it didn't need to be added as a qualification.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rhizome 6y ago
A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo and has subsidies involved and all kinds of subtleties that I don't know about but still aren't expensive. And I'm not saying "move to France," I'm saying that tax dollars in the US should be going toward making the lives of tax payers easier, especially in a nationwide/global situation like a pandemic.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  Yes but isn't that childcare in france gone?
  - MrGando 6y ago
    no it's back. It will probably be gone again if things keep spiraling out of control, but child-care is back in France.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      It is always funny thinking that outside of the US a lot of places are able to cautiously resume normal life while here we’re all either terrified or pretending nothing is wrong.
      - prh8 6y ago
        France and Spain are also currently experiencing big spikes again. We are struggling in the US for sure (especially due to the extremity of most opinions like you mention), but so are other places.
        MrGando 6y ago
        They are having difficulties for very different reasons.
tomcam 6y ago
> This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Ha, I don't disagree! Getting some stairs in is good for my health. My point was more about how disruptive it is to try and juggle activities happening simultaneously all over the house. My office is upstairs, my kids do schoolwork at the dining table downstairs. We're working out a schedule where my wife and I will alternate between our offices and taking our laptops down to sit at the dining table next to the kids, but it's barely controlled chaos right now. It'll settle down a lot as everyone figures out the new routine, but it's never going to be as simple as getting them dressed, fed, and out the door to the school for the day.
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Oh man, I feel you. My clever solution has been large houses and kids who are used to a work-at-home dad... but yeah
dumb1224 6y ago
The big downside for me having a small child at home is that I could not concentrate on a task for more than half and hour, which is essential for research work. I had to go over stuff again and again because once my thoughts broken I need to follow long trails to pick it up again. I enjoy spending time with family but I have a real urge for uninterrupted work now.

eanzenberg 6y ago

How do social services help? The article is about parents with jobs adjusting or continuing to adjust to working from home with kids there. Social services as you listed are primarily for people who aren’t working.

mitchdoogle 6y ago
They are saying anyone who supports those things should be willing to tolerate having to do a bit of extra work to make up for those in less ideal situations. Basically, if you talk the talk about the country providing more social goodness, you should walk the walk in your own workplace when it comes to social goodness.

dheera 6y ago

IMO the real broken part of this system is that people are not getting legally-protected personal time. A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children. We need to be prioritizing peoples' personal time and respecting however they choose to use it. Regardless whether someone chooses to spend their personal time raising kids or raising orphans in an orphanage or rescuing animals or reading books or hiking the wilderness or community service or being social and sleeping and watching movies, all of these things are good for their own mental health, and we need to not discriminate between these choices in giving people their personal time. It's when people are working till 11pm and someone says "I need to leave at 6 to make food for my kids" that the resentment happens. If everyone got off at 6, there wouldn't be any resentment.

mjangle1985 6y ago
>It's when people are working till 11pm and someone says "I need to leave at 6 to make food for my kids" that the resentment happens. If everyone got off at 6, there wouldn't be any resentment. What would you propose then? The parents starve their children? What an absurd thing to have resentment over. Do you believe the parents don't feel guilt over having to duck out early while others without children continue to work? I know when I have to do it I do. It's a pretty terrible place to be stuck between letting your kids down and letting your coworkers down. What an awful thing to build resentment over.
- dheera 6y ago
  Please re-read the full comment. I am not expressing resent, I am explaining why resentment occurs in the masses. > What would you propose then? I proposed a solution, in the very first line of my comment: "legally-protected personal time"
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Most people on this site can already work a 40-ish hour week and not get fired. They also probably won’t advance as quickly as someone with equal talent/ability who puts in extra hours when needed. It would offend many (including me) if the law prohibited people from working as hard/long as they wanted. If you want legal protection to prevent being you fired specifically because you don’t want to work more than 40 hours a week, I’d 100% support that. If you want legal protection to prevent me from working harder than that, I’m 100% opposed.

MakeUsersWant 6y ago

Mix in special-needs children who need constant one-on-one support, young siblings, and dual career parents. Covid stress falls completely off the radar.

mrexroad 6y ago
Yeah... this. Not all situations at home are equal. Wish folks at work would understand that. ... school aged kids outnumber my partner and I. IEP and 504 support has yet to prove effective remote. But it’s the effort to mitigate the developmental regression that keeps me up at night. Cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. isn’t cheap either. ... working from the 1950’s garage with ambient temps just shy of 100F last week (no space to work inside). ... partner is now out of work too, but I guess it’s a good thing for ensure all the kids attend “their meetings”? It can always get worse, and likely will. I dunno, just saying—-yeah, i agree. COVID stress isn’t even on the radar.
- hunta2097 6y ago
  Hello fellow garage-worker!

quadrifoliate 6y ago

> Maybe I am making assumptions here on the general political leanings of those here, but if you are talking about supporting anything like Medicare for all, UBI, BLM, PPP or even just support the Democratic party in general, pulling a little extra weight for those in a time of need is IMHO a relatively small ask that you as an individual can implement compared to those agendas. I suspect a fair number of the complainers are people with Democratic leanings, and I think I can describe their thought process to you. I think their problem is that a private company is doing this, not the Government. Suppose someone has to be a caregiver for an elderly relative during COVID. Facebook probably won't offer them 10 weeks for paid leave for doing this, because Facebook's internal cost-benefit metrics tell them that it's not useful. That's why people are resentful – a private company should not be in charge of deciding who gets time to deal with changes as fundamental as this in society. Policies like Medicare for all, compulsory maternity and paternity leave, or caregiver leave implemented by the Government (ideally) take into account the wishes of society as a whole, not a large private company like Facebook. For example, I think caregiver leave would be very popular due to the aging population of the US being a large section of voters, there are already tax credits starting for the same thing. I am personally fine with giving as much time as is needed for people with families as well as people in a bunch of other situations. Life is complex and we need to help out each other as much as possible. But I fear that the ruthless utilitarianism of most American corporations doesn't play well with this worldview, leading to resentments like the article describes.

zarkov99 6y ago
I think you are on to something. Many people are happy to be generous with others time and money but less so with their own.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  That's not it exactly. It's more about everyone pulling equal weight, not about getting freebies at others' expense. It's also about the correct realization that some problems can only be solved by the actions of society as a whole, that individual choices alone cannot sufficiently solve the problem. E.g. I alone can't solve the problem of catastrophic climate change no matter how green I live in my own life.

briandear 6y ago

The thing is, there is a contingent of people that support the Democratic Party assuming they benefit or, at the very least, have someone else pay for it. As an example, if you took a cross section of supporters, if they had their taxes increase by 100% to support $some_policy, they would be less inclined to support that increase. But if you say “the rich” should pay for XYZ, then support grows substantially. There are those that would pay higher taxes for altruistic reasons, however, those people are certainly welcome to write a check to the Treasury — but they don’t. When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. If you aren’t charitable to your cubical mate, it’s ironic that one can expect charity for “society.” It’s easy to be charitable when someone else is paying for it, either with money or work. In other words, it’s easier to spend other people’s money and time.

yakz 6y ago
I don't see how this applies to the Democratic Party any more than the Republican Party.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
>When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. Yes, because I'm not going to put my family at a disadvantage versus others in society unless everyone is going to chip in. That's a perfectly reasonable position to hold.
- briandear 6y ago
  But everyone doesn’t chip in. 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes.
  - Cd00d 6y ago
    That's because they make so little money that paying taxes would impact their ability to feed themselves. This comes up just enough I wonder - are there really people that wish to revoke citizen privileges because you don't earn enough money?

moron4hire 6y ago

Nitpick: institutional schooling over Zoom is not the same thing as home schooling. The teaching methods are different, the culture is very different, and home schooling is normally a choice that families make, not something foisted on them.

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago

I dont think this is a wild assumption. It is well documented that financial support as well as the policies of the democratic party (Defund, UBI etc) is heavy in the FAANGs particularly FB and Google[1] Starting from that premise, one can assume that any sample drawn of a subpopulation that includes single employees will be heavily titled towards (D)[2] Therefore, one notes that the same people that support most (D) platform policies today, are very much against parental benefits. How to reconcile this? Here is where we get to the uncomfortable zone: Supporters of defund, UBI, BLM etc are happy... as long as the cost of said policies impose a burden that is at least as heavy on them, as everyone else. However, when they are asked to sacrifice themselves only, they fail to report to duty. In other words, their public position (everyone must show empathy to others) clashes with their private one (self empathy to their tribe) Problem: when your private beliefs clash with your public persona, this invalidates your public persona, not your private beliefs. [1] campaign contribution disclosures by company. [2] see voter trends by age group.

mcv 6y ago

I'm fortunate to be working for a company that requires everybody to work from home. You need to request to come to the office. They did this before the Dutch government recommended it, and will probably continue this until well after most companies have gone back to the office. That said, the lockdown in April when he had to basically homeschool our kids was tough. It was tough despite the fact that our normally one-evening-every-two-weeks babysitter was helping out three days a week (she lost all her other jobs and couldn't go to university, so this helped her too), and we've got a big house. I can't imagine what it must be like for families in small houses without this kind of help. This week we're keeping our youngest home from school again because he has a cough (probably just a cold, but you can't send him to school this way), and again it's incredibly disruptive to our work. But you've got to deal. There are people who have it much worse, we just need to be understanding towards each other until this is over. Maybe this is a badly needed course in empathy.

relativitypro 6y ago

Well. I’d like to have had kids, and am jealous of those that have. While the pandemic is a curveball, people With kids are investing in their future and continuing their families. I think the frustration comes from the perspective that your personal life is enriched with kids, while some of the pressing daily grind is put off your shoulders. It isn’t humane to say, but it also isn’t meritorious.

bumby 6y ago

I'm in favor of many of the social safety nets so I'm playing devils advocate here to a certain extent. Also, this is probably a (largely) US-centrism take. I think the US is still largely affected by the rugged-individualistic psyche. There was an HN article yesterday that studied the personality traits in the previous mountain/frontier and indicated these ideals persist, more in some areas than others. So I think this impacts the mindset, particularly when an individual is asked to sacrifice for the better of the group. "Why should I pay for their life choices?" they may say. If I'm in a position to contribute more than my share, I am grateful to be in that position to a certain extent. I personally feel there is still an individual benefit by create a more stable society but I can also empathize with those who don't feel the same.