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I don’t have kids, but this strikes me as lacking empathy in the current climate. Choosing to have kids or not pre-COVID came with a set of expectations, risks

I don’t have kids, but this strikes me as lacking empathy in the current climate. Choosing to have kids or not pre-COVID came with a set of expectations, risks, and choices that were fairly well defined. Parental leave, childcare, proximity to family and friends, school, increased costs, medical treatemtn, etc. Parents could evaluate those based on what their employer offered and the experiences of their peers going through the same processes. Now, with COVID, the entire world has changed. School is no longer school. Childcare doesn’t exist. Friends and family are socially distanced or inaccessible due to quarantine. Parks and beaches are closed. Vacations are extremely limited. Any social interaction has become a risk. None of these were risks that a reasonable parent would consider, and even for the paranoid ones, it is highly unlikely that anyone considered it all at once. Given the extreme change we are going through, the “if you can’t handle it, don’t have kids argument” is just not realistic. A pandemic isn’t “just how life goes”.

goldenchrome 6y ago
A pandemic is exactly how life goes. Barely more than one lifetime ago we had the Spanish Flu, WW1, WW2, multiple market crashes, and so on. Global warming is likely to cause more situations like those in the coming years. Much of this pandemic is overrated. My friends and family aren’t socially distanced. Parks and beaches are actually open. Vacations are very easy and very popular. Social interaction is not a risk for the vast majority of healthy people. If you’re scared of it, fine. Everyone in my life is not, and life is quite normal.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > My friends and family aren’t socially distanced...Social interaction is not a risk for the vast majority of healthy people. Have you considered that this attitude might be the reason this pandemic has so affected the US in particular?
  - goldenchrome 6y ago
    I’ll care when we legislate against obesity, which causes far more deaths every single year. Until then, it’s just fear mongering.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      Obesity isn't a communicable disease. And has nothing to do with our current situation. Obesity isn't the reason I can't walk into a store without a mask. It's not the reason I haven't met my friends and family in months. Stop being obtuse. The only reason we're in the mess we are is the utter and complete mismanagement of our response. And our collective heads-in-the-sand attitude to the whole thing.
      - goldenchrome 6y ago
        Obesity is the reason healthcare premiums are high though. I’d rather wear a mask than pay for obese people to get a quadruple bypass. Coronavirus isn’t the reason you haven’t met your friends and family in months. The disease isn’t violent enough to warrant that level of action. Everyone I know spent their Labor Day with their friends and families. That is your decision.
        triceratops 6y ago
        > Everyone I know spent their Labor Day with their friends and families. And that's the selfishness I'm calling out. > That is your decision. It's really not. I have elderly family members who are at risk from the disease. I have friends and family in other states and countries who I can't visit due to Covid travel restrictions. Do you know why those exist? Because we haven't been able to curb the spread of the disease. Because people keep saying "it's your decision" about social distancing and rather than actually doing something about the disease. > Obesity is the reason healthcare premiums are high though. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I can opt out of paying healthcare premiums. I can choose to stay fit. I can't choose not to get coronavirus and I definitely can't choose to travel someplace travel restrictions are in effect. It's an idiotic comparison, a weak deflection.
extrawork99 6y ago
A pandemic is exactly how life is. Do you know of anything that happened outside of your timeline-bubble? There is and will always be the risk that those safety nets go away. Society changes. Family members die. Childcare is expensive. Hospitals get overwhelmed or fail.
bluejellybean 6y ago
I disagree with your last bit. >'Given the extreme change we are going through, the “if you can’t handle it, don’t have kids argument” is just not realistic. A pandemic isn’t “just how life goes”.' Maybe not a pandemic but it shouldn't be any shock that children make things much more complicated. It's, most of the time in the US today, a choice to have a child. The unexpected nature of a pandemic isn't really an excuse for me. One knows unexpected things happen with children, if you haven't prepared for those unplanned contingencies, that's on you as a parent. Should the same benefits be given to parents who maybe have to stay home more because they feel their kid a slightly larger burden than others? What if the child becomes autistic and you are required to spend more time with them? Any situation like this sucks but at what point should it really be a businesses problem and when shouldn't it be? I think these are really interesting problems under normal circumstances, the Covid part is just businesses having to deal with them all at the same time rather than individually on a case-by-case. To show that this isn't just Covid, let me share with you a story about a few nurses I met who have been exploiting a hospital system for personal gain (and brag about it!), something that could ruin a small business with relative ease. Big hospital near me has a policy of maternity leave for nursing staff, something like 6 months off, no questions asked whenever you have a child. Sounds fantastic on the surface. Well, this small pack of nurses all knowingly do the same thing, they have children as much as humanly possible, think on the order of 8-13 children. Because of their constant pregnancy and child birthing, they are effectively able to work only 6 months out of the year, 6 month vacations. Everyone else at this org, maximum time off in one stint is 3 weeks. This means, under this hospital's policy, the only way that I can take a month off is to either work at least 1 day each month. Say goodby to taking months of in winter to stay in warmer climate, say goodbye to benefits otherwise. These nurses though, who are easily able to save their salaries to cover their yearly costs, get all company benefits like healthcare. Is this 'fair'? As someone who isn't physically able to have children, I would argue no, it's not completely. This isn't to there should be nothing for these parents, I don't really know what the right answer is.
- duderific 6y ago
  > Maybe not a pandemic ... But, we are in a pandemic now. So the rest of your argument is moot. > One knows unexpected things happen with children, if you haven't prepared for those unplanned contingencies, that's on you as a parent. Sure, maybe a broken leg, or mono, or some other health issue could force the child to be home for a while. But not all schools close suddenly, and all other childcare options as well. What would planning for that look like exactly? > Well, this small pack of nurses all knowingly do the same thing, they have children as much as humanly possible, think on the order of 8-13 children ... able to work only 6 months out of the year, 6 month vacations As a father of two small children, I can confidently tell you that having a newborn is hardly a six month vacation.

goldenchrome 6y ago

A pandemic is exactly how life goes. Barely more than one lifetime ago we had the Spanish Flu, WW1, WW2, multiple market crashes, and so on. Global warming is likely to cause more situations like those in the coming years. Much of this pandemic is overrated. My friends and family aren’t socially distanced. Parks and beaches are actually open. Vacations are very easy and very popular. Social interaction is not a risk for the vast majority of healthy people. If you’re scared of it, fine. Everyone in my life is not, and life is quite normal.

triceratops 6y ago
> My friends and family aren’t socially distanced...Social interaction is not a risk for the vast majority of healthy people. Have you considered that this attitude might be the reason this pandemic has so affected the US in particular?
- goldenchrome 6y ago
  I’ll care when we legislate against obesity, which causes far more deaths every single year. Until then, it’s just fear mongering.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Obesity isn't a communicable disease. And has nothing to do with our current situation. Obesity isn't the reason I can't walk into a store without a mask. It's not the reason I haven't met my friends and family in months. Stop being obtuse. The only reason we're in the mess we are is the utter and complete mismanagement of our response. And our collective heads-in-the-sand attitude to the whole thing.
    - goldenchrome 6y ago
      Obesity is the reason healthcare premiums are high though. I’d rather wear a mask than pay for obese people to get a quadruple bypass. Coronavirus isn’t the reason you haven’t met your friends and family in months. The disease isn’t violent enough to warrant that level of action. Everyone I know spent their Labor Day with their friends and families. That is your decision.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        > Everyone I know spent their Labor Day with their friends and families. And that's the selfishness I'm calling out. > That is your decision. It's really not. I have elderly family members who are at risk from the disease. I have friends and family in other states and countries who I can't visit due to Covid travel restrictions. Do you know why those exist? Because we haven't been able to curb the spread of the disease. Because people keep saying "it's your decision" about social distancing and rather than actually doing something about the disease. > Obesity is the reason healthcare premiums are high though. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I can opt out of paying healthcare premiums. I can choose to stay fit. I can't choose not to get coronavirus and I definitely can't choose to travel someplace travel restrictions are in effect. It's an idiotic comparison, a weak deflection.

extrawork99 6y ago

A pandemic is exactly how life is. Do you know of anything that happened outside of your timeline-bubble? There is and will always be the risk that those safety nets go away. Society changes. Family members die. Childcare is expensive. Hospitals get overwhelmed or fail.

bluejellybean 6y ago

I disagree with your last bit. >'Given the extreme change we are going through, the “if you can’t handle it, don’t have kids argument” is just not realistic. A pandemic isn’t “just how life goes”.' Maybe not a pandemic but it shouldn't be any shock that children make things much more complicated. It's, most of the time in the US today, a choice to have a child. The unexpected nature of a pandemic isn't really an excuse for me. One knows unexpected things happen with children, if you haven't prepared for those unplanned contingencies, that's on you as a parent. Should the same benefits be given to parents who maybe have to stay home more because they feel their kid a slightly larger burden than others? What if the child becomes autistic and you are required to spend more time with them? Any situation like this sucks but at what point should it really be a businesses problem and when shouldn't it be? I think these are really interesting problems under normal circumstances, the Covid part is just businesses having to deal with them all at the same time rather than individually on a case-by-case. To show that this isn't just Covid, let me share with you a story about a few nurses I met who have been exploiting a hospital system for personal gain (and brag about it!), something that could ruin a small business with relative ease. Big hospital near me has a policy of maternity leave for nursing staff, something like 6 months off, no questions asked whenever you have a child. Sounds fantastic on the surface. Well, this small pack of nurses all knowingly do the same thing, they have children as much as humanly possible, think on the order of 8-13 children. Because of their constant pregnancy and child birthing, they are effectively able to work only 6 months out of the year, 6 month vacations. Everyone else at this org, maximum time off in one stint is 3 weeks. This means, under this hospital's policy, the only way that I can take a month off is to either work at least 1 day each month. Say goodby to taking months of in winter to stay in warmer climate, say goodbye to benefits otherwise. These nurses though, who are easily able to save their salaries to cover their yearly costs, get all company benefits like healthcare. Is this 'fair'? As someone who isn't physically able to have children, I would argue no, it's not completely. This isn't to there should be nothing for these parents, I don't really know what the right answer is.

duderific 6y ago
> Maybe not a pandemic ... But, we are in a pandemic now. So the rest of your argument is moot. > One knows unexpected things happen with children, if you haven't prepared for those unplanned contingencies, that's on you as a parent. Sure, maybe a broken leg, or mono, or some other health issue could force the child to be home for a while. But not all schools close suddenly, and all other childcare options as well. What would planning for that look like exactly? > Well, this small pack of nurses all knowingly do the same thing, they have children as much as humanly possible, think on the order of 8-13 children ... able to work only 6 months out of the year, 6 month vacations As a father of two small children, I can confidently tell you that having a newborn is hardly a six month vacation.