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Neither. The failure is with the team's manager. The team's leadership should have reduced the workload of the team. It starts at the top. I work at a (non-tec

Neither. The failure is with the team's manager. The team's leadership should have reduced the workload of the team. It starts at the top. I work at a (non-tech) Fortune 50 and the message from the CEO on down has been the same: take vacation, take care of your family, some priorities/projects for this year will not be met and that is fine.

ChuckMcM 6y ago
+1000 for this. If you're manager can't manage you're screwed.
icelancer 6y ago
>> The team's leadership should have reduced the workload of the team. This isn't always possible, especially given the target businesses that hang out here. This is just evading a tough question.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Then the leadership should plan around this, given covid has so far been an 8 month+ shitshow into the future. If leadership can't handle a chronic issue within the org then this is bad leadership.
  - owenmarshall 6y ago
    Any management that isn't looking at the current situation and planning for another year of the same – or worse – probably needs to find a new role.
- WWLink 6y ago
  Yes it is. They should hire another person.
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  But we should never take "the target businesses that hang out here" as a "given". If you aren't open to less working ours and less output, you will never get management's boot off your neck.
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  In my experience it is. One property of a good manager is that they have a good idea of how much their team can produce over unit time. Combined with experience on the teams ability to integrate with other projects at delivery time and repair defects that arise, gives them a good idea how much time something will take to get done, plus or minus a small delta. Bad managers just say "You bet!" when given an unreasonable timeline (more work than can be done) and then push their workers too hard and blame them when upper management asks why the project is late. It is an all too common management pattern. When engineers talk about "How hard is management really? You just tell everyone else what to do and yell at them to get it done." they miss that one of the things you do as a manager is tell your boss, "Nope, can't do that without either additional people or additional time." Sometimes it is always time because not all projects can be broken up into parallel efforts. That conversation can be hard unless you've built up the level of trust and understanding with your manager so that they respect your time estimates and requests. Often times your first few encounters along this line you have to keep "parallel books" where you note what you thought it would take and you look at what it actually took, and what was asked. Bringing that information together in a 1:1 setting can help educate your manager that a) you know what you are doing and b) they should trust your judgement.
bzb5 6y ago
This reminds me of mandatory leave for male parents after childbirth. Women will stop producing because of childbirth, so let’s screw everybody over
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  >This reminds me of mandatory leave for male parents after childbirth. A pretty dang important thing. For my 5 sons, I did the vast bulk of changing diapers, feeding, cleaning & the rest of it. >Women will stop producing because of childbirth, so let’s screw everybody over Women don't stop producing. Day to day, they're more likely to out-produce the men in their lives. Anyone who's in their shadow and somehow feeling screwed-over is in deep need of a perspective adjustment.
  - bzb5 6y ago
    I am talking in regards to the business they work at, but you already know that.
    - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
      As am I. Women are forever pulling ½ our load.
ActorNightly 6y ago
Thats nice and all for a big established company. Smaller companies dont have this luxury, because execution is everything. The issue overall shouldnt be with extra workload, but with rewards. People without kids shouldnt be angry at having to pick up the slack, thats normal part of any business, but they def have the right to be angry at the management if they dont get rewarded for it
- Kalium 6y ago
  It's true of small companies too. If you don't manage well, there are negative consequences. Is it possible that what's changed is the price of good leadership?
- WWLink 6y ago
  I've only worked for small companies. The one company that gave me a bad impression about how it treated its employees is the only one that ended up bankrupt.
  - ActorNightly 6y ago
    Asking salaried employees to pick up slack to deliver to market to get revenue isnt treating employees badly though.
YetAnotherNick 6y ago
By how much? 30 hours per week? 20 hours? 5 hours? GP didn't mention that the workload was bad, just than on average parents seems to get similar benefit for the lesser effort and hours than non parents. You just wrote this to evade saying anything negative. The clear question is should the expectations be reduced for parents for similar promotion or not? And if your answer is yes, then by how much?

ChuckMcM 6y ago

+1000 for this. If you're manager can't manage you're screwed.

icelancer 6y ago

>> The team's leadership should have reduced the workload of the team. This isn't always possible, especially given the target businesses that hang out here. This is just evading a tough question.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
Then the leadership should plan around this, given covid has so far been an 8 month+ shitshow into the future. If leadership can't handle a chronic issue within the org then this is bad leadership.
- owenmarshall 6y ago
  Any management that isn't looking at the current situation and planning for another year of the same – or worse – probably needs to find a new role.
WWLink 6y ago
Yes it is. They should hire another person.
Ericson2314 6y ago
But we should never take "the target businesses that hang out here" as a "given". If you aren't open to less working ours and less output, you will never get management's boot off your neck.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
In my experience it is. One property of a good manager is that they have a good idea of how much their team can produce over unit time. Combined with experience on the teams ability to integrate with other projects at delivery time and repair defects that arise, gives them a good idea how much time something will take to get done, plus or minus a small delta. Bad managers just say "You bet!" when given an unreasonable timeline (more work than can be done) and then push their workers too hard and blame them when upper management asks why the project is late. It is an all too common management pattern. When engineers talk about "How hard is management really? You just tell everyone else what to do and yell at them to get it done." they miss that one of the things you do as a manager is tell your boss, "Nope, can't do that without either additional people or additional time." Sometimes it is always time because not all projects can be broken up into parallel efforts. That conversation can be hard unless you've built up the level of trust and understanding with your manager so that they respect your time estimates and requests. Often times your first few encounters along this line you have to keep "parallel books" where you note what you thought it would take and you look at what it actually took, and what was asked. Bringing that information together in a 1:1 setting can help educate your manager that a) you know what you are doing and b) they should trust your judgement.

bzb5 6y ago

This reminds me of mandatory leave for male parents after childbirth. Women will stop producing because of childbirth, so let’s screw everybody over

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
>This reminds me of mandatory leave for male parents after childbirth. A pretty dang important thing. For my 5 sons, I did the vast bulk of changing diapers, feeding, cleaning & the rest of it. >Women will stop producing because of childbirth, so let’s screw everybody over Women don't stop producing. Day to day, they're more likely to out-produce the men in their lives. Anyone who's in their shadow and somehow feeling screwed-over is in deep need of a perspective adjustment.
- bzb5 6y ago
  I am talking in regards to the business they work at, but you already know that.
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    As am I. Women are forever pulling ½ our load.

ActorNightly 6y ago

Thats nice and all for a big established company. Smaller companies dont have this luxury, because execution is everything. The issue overall shouldnt be with extra workload, but with rewards. People without kids shouldnt be angry at having to pick up the slack, thats normal part of any business, but they def have the right to be angry at the management if they dont get rewarded for it

Kalium 6y ago
It's true of small companies too. If you don't manage well, there are negative consequences. Is it possible that what's changed is the price of good leadership?
WWLink 6y ago
I've only worked for small companies. The one company that gave me a bad impression about how it treated its employees is the only one that ended up bankrupt.
- ActorNightly 6y ago
  Asking salaried employees to pick up slack to deliver to market to get revenue isnt treating employees badly though.

YetAnotherNick 6y ago

By how much? 30 hours per week? 20 hours? 5 hours? GP didn't mention that the workload was bad, just than on average parents seems to get similar benefit for the lesser effort and hours than non parents. You just wrote this to evade saying anything negative. The clear question is should the expectations be reduced for parents for similar promotion or not? And if your answer is yes, then by how much?