3 ms·

> You want to put up a barrier between yourself and your Chinese friends on the odd chance that 0.1% of your conversations might be about Tiananmen, and you can

by creato 6y ago

> You want to put up a barrier between yourself and your Chinese friends on the odd chance that 0.1% of your conversations might be about Tiananmen, and you can't be bothered to move to another platform? This kind of thinking is exactly why WeChat should be banned. China has banned every other means of communication, so it's the only option. Banning WeChat isn't a provocation, it's reciprocation.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Reciprocation, for what? For censoring their own citizen? That's like saying China should sanction the US for crimes during BLM. Of course censorship isn't okay, but US doesn't get to play world police. And you're supporting this attack in order to spite China, while totally ignoring practical outcomes for Chinese people, the very people you claim to support? "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." Live and let live. Is that so hard?
- creato 6y ago
  > Reciprocation, for what? For censoring their own citizen? It doesn't matter why they are banning every other means of communication. The fact is, they are banned. It's not a matter of spite. In every other area of international relations, reciprocation is how things get done. You tariff me, I tariff you. You restrict visas for me, I restrict visas for you. It would suck for Chinese people overseas. That would be unfortunate. They should petition their government to unban a few means of communication!
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Your tit-for-tat comparison makes no sense. Censoring messages on Wechat does not affect US. You’re making up a non-existant attack from China against US. Your attitude is 100% spite, you're just rationalizing it.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      > Censoring messages on Wechat does not affect US. It removes spying on US users.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        If the ban is limited to the US only, and if they provide clear conditions on how to resolve this problem (such as pointing out which concrete US data laws are violated, and talking about clear steps towards resolving those violations) then you may have a point. But the ban is world wide. Even inside China. And there are no conditions, it's a ban that cannot be resolved. Claims of spying is just an excuse. They want to burn China's prosperity down to the ground.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - jariel 6y ago
      The CCP is absolutely censoring, monitoring and harvesting data from every app that is based and controlled from China, especially WeChat. That is publicly stated policy. There is no need for 'tit for tat' apps from China should be banned by every reasonable jurisdiction outside China for that reason alone. Without even getting complicated, just using EU GDPR as a basis for banning it would be just fine under already established legislation. We just went through the entire 20th century of trying to overcome such bad regimes, the only reason that China is able to get away with any of it is due to basic economic power i.e. trade interdependance. So it's time to reconsider and realign - too bad Trump pulled out of the TPP because that would have been a good first step.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        Wechat should comply with local laws. I completely agree with that. But at the same time you're also saying that, regardless of law, the fact that the Chinese government can monitor the data, is justification for banning all Chinese apps. You're so proud of rule of law, but once it's about China you're throwing rule of law away, and the only reason is because you want to stick it to them? If you limit your statement to "it should be banned because it violates concrete laws" then I would agree. But "it should be banned because it's Chinese" is absurd and unfair. Look at the Tiktok ban: they accuse Tiktok of forwarding data to the CCP, yet no concrete evidence of such practice has ever been shown. Everything is based on the speculation that it could happen. Well, okay, we can solve that via a security audit, right? Audit all the infrastructure, all the firewall rules, all the communication channels, and exhaustively prove that privacy laws are being adhered to. But no, nobody's interested in such an investigation. Chinese apps are guilty until proven innocent, and nobody's interested in proof of innocence or proper due process. Is your belief in western values really that shallow?
- ardy42 6y ago
  > "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." You do recall there's a pretty high-profile movement of Chinese citizens, some of whom were waving American flags and asking for liberation? https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hong-kong-protests-cross-half-year-mark-rally-67573973 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hong-kong-pro... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/university-hong-kong-students-wave-115400907.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/university-hong-kong-students-wave...
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I get the feeling that I'll be downvoted again if I don't make myself clear with a disclaimer, so here goes: I support the idea of democracy in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the current movement has many problems (understatement) and cannot be called a true democratic movement. Here are some Hong Kong'ers with a different perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 Note: there's no great firewall in Hong Kong, so it's normal that they post to Youtube. Those US flag wavers were limited to some in Hong Kong only. The rest of the population (including Hong Kong) has a very different opinion. See the above videos, posted by Hong Kong'ers. Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: - Hong Kong Human Rights bill, which damages the Hong Kong economy. - Banning Chinese companies, which damages both the Chinese and the US economy. I believe that your intentions are genuine, but I don't believe the US govt's intentions are. To them it's all a political game, like "liberating" Iraq from that evil dictator who conjured weapons of mass destruction out of nothing.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > Here are some Hong Kong'ers with a different perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 So? In 7.5 million people, you can find examples of pretty much any opinion you can think of. I can find videos from Westerners who will lecture you like they're reading from a CCP propaganda script. > Those US flag wavers were limited to some in Hong Kong only. Of course: anyone who did that in China outside of Hong Kong would have been arrested immediately, just like anyone who would try to do that now inside of Hong Kong (due to the new national security law). > The rest of the population (including Hong Kong) has a very different opinion. I'm not so sure, even before the national security law, a call for liberation would have been pushing the boundaries. If an opinion is literally illegal, it's impossible to say with any kind of reliability how prevalent that opinion truly is (or what kinds of opinions people would hold, without the threats and their second and third order effects). > Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: > - Hong Kong Human Rights bill, which damages the Hong Kong economy. > - Banning Chinese companies, which damages both the Chinese and the US economy. The most obvious is to drop the economics uber alles outlook, and limit engagement to areas that might eventually lead to positive results on the human rights front. >>> "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." >> You do recall there's a pretty high-profile movement of Chinese citizens, some of whom were waving American flags and asking for liberation? > Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: I didn't say it had a plan or that it could, I was merely pointing out that as a matter of fact, that liberation was wanted and asked for.

by creato 6y ago

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Reciprocation, for what? For censoring their own citizen? That's like saying China should sanction the US for crimes during BLM. Of course censorship isn't okay, but US doesn't get to play world police. And you're supporting this attack in order to spite China, while totally ignoring practical outcomes for Chinese people, the very people you claim to support? "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." Live and let live. Is that so hard?

creato 6y ago
> Reciprocation, for what? For censoring their own citizen? It doesn't matter why they are banning every other means of communication. The fact is, they are banned. It's not a matter of spite. In every other area of international relations, reciprocation is how things get done. You tariff me, I tariff you. You restrict visas for me, I restrict visas for you. It would suck for Chinese people overseas. That would be unfortunate. They should petition their government to unban a few means of communication!
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Your tit-for-tat comparison makes no sense. Censoring messages on Wechat does not affect US. You’re making up a non-existant attack from China against US. Your attitude is 100% spite, you're just rationalizing it.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > Censoring messages on Wechat does not affect US. It removes spying on US users.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      If the ban is limited to the US only, and if they provide clear conditions on how to resolve this problem (such as pointing out which concrete US data laws are violated, and talking about clear steps towards resolving those violations) then you may have a point. But the ban is world wide. Even inside China. And there are no conditions, it's a ban that cannot be resolved. Claims of spying is just an excuse. They want to burn China's prosperity down to the ground.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - jariel 6y ago
    The CCP is absolutely censoring, monitoring and harvesting data from every app that is based and controlled from China, especially WeChat. That is publicly stated policy. There is no need for 'tit for tat' apps from China should be banned by every reasonable jurisdiction outside China for that reason alone. Without even getting complicated, just using EU GDPR as a basis for banning it would be just fine under already established legislation. We just went through the entire 20th century of trying to overcome such bad regimes, the only reason that China is able to get away with any of it is due to basic economic power i.e. trade interdependance. So it's time to reconsider and realign - too bad Trump pulled out of the TPP because that would have been a good first step.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Wechat should comply with local laws. I completely agree with that. But at the same time you're also saying that, regardless of law, the fact that the Chinese government can monitor the data, is justification for banning all Chinese apps. You're so proud of rule of law, but once it's about China you're throwing rule of law away, and the only reason is because you want to stick it to them? If you limit your statement to "it should be banned because it violates concrete laws" then I would agree. But "it should be banned because it's Chinese" is absurd and unfair. Look at the Tiktok ban: they accuse Tiktok of forwarding data to the CCP, yet no concrete evidence of such practice has ever been shown. Everything is based on the speculation that it could happen. Well, okay, we can solve that via a security audit, right? Audit all the infrastructure, all the firewall rules, all the communication channels, and exhaustively prove that privacy laws are being adhered to. But no, nobody's interested in such an investigation. Chinese apps are guilty until proven innocent, and nobody's interested in proof of innocence or proper due process. Is your belief in western values really that shallow?
ardy42 6y ago
> "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." You do recall there's a pretty high-profile movement of Chinese citizens, some of whom were waving American flags and asking for liberation? https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hong-kong-protests-cross-half-year-mark-rally-67573973 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hong-kong-pro... https://sg.news.yahoo.com/university-hong-kong-students-wave-115400907.html https://sg.news.yahoo.com/university-hong-kong-students-wave...
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  I get the feeling that I'll be downvoted again if I don't make myself clear with a disclaimer, so here goes: I support the idea of democracy in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the current movement has many problems (understatement) and cannot be called a true democratic movement. Here are some Hong Kong'ers with a different perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 Note: there's no great firewall in Hong Kong, so it's normal that they post to Youtube. Those US flag wavers were limited to some in Hong Kong only. The rest of the population (including Hong Kong) has a very different opinion. See the above videos, posted by Hong Kong'ers. Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: - Hong Kong Human Rights bill, which damages the Hong Kong economy. - Banning Chinese companies, which damages both the Chinese and the US economy. I believe that your intentions are genuine, but I don't believe the US govt's intentions are. To them it's all a political game, like "liberating" Iraq from that evil dictator who conjured weapons of mass destruction out of nothing.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Here are some Hong Kong'ers with a different perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-m6FDMYg0 So? In 7.5 million people, you can find examples of pretty much any opinion you can think of. I can find videos from Westerners who will lecture you like they're reading from a CCP propaganda script. > Those US flag wavers were limited to some in Hong Kong only. Of course: anyone who did that in China outside of Hong Kong would have been arrested immediately, just like anyone who would try to do that now inside of Hong Kong (due to the new national security law). > The rest of the population (including Hong Kong) has a very different opinion. I'm not so sure, even before the national security law, a call for liberation would have been pushing the boundaries. If an opinion is literally illegal, it's impossible to say with any kind of reliability how prevalent that opinion truly is (or what kinds of opinions people would hold, without the threats and their second and third order effects). > Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: > - Hong Kong Human Rights bill, which damages the Hong Kong economy. > - Banning Chinese companies, which damages both the Chinese and the US economy. The most obvious is to drop the economics uber alles outlook, and limit engagement to areas that might eventually lead to positive results on the human rights front. >>> "We support you, we just hate your government. So we'll forcefully liberate you, even if you didn't ask for liberation." >> You do recall there's a pretty high-profile movement of Chinese citizens, some of whom were waving American flags and asking for liberation? > Furthermore, how exactly does the US plan to liberate people? Here's what's done so far: I didn't say it had a plan or that it could, I was merely pointing out that as a matter of fact, that liberation was wanted and asked for.