6 ms·

God I hope this suit is successful. Lots of people here are discussing the regulatory trap they've got, and that's a big problem. But the actual problem mention

God I hope this suit is successful. Lots of people here are discussing the regulatory trap they've got, and that's a big problem. But the actual problem mentioned in the suit is deceptive marketing. TurboTax is the worst in this regard. Last year, I, at every step of the process, declined the expensive options that say "maybe you'll save more money if you permanently switch into this paid mode". Yet after a couple hours of filling out forms, they said at the end that it wasn't possible to file using the free version, and that I would have to pay a couple hundred dollars. That ticked me off. They have all of the information required to figure this out much earlier in the process (income), yet they continue to allow you to pick the free tier up until the very end where the tedium of starting over with a different service is too high. Fuck em. Their UI is very nice though, especially for guiding people through a process that they almost intrinsically hate.

scott_s 6y ago
> Their UI is very nice though, especially for guiding people through a process that they almost intrinsically hate. Which is evidence towards the idea that if they wanted to make choosing the free or paid versions easy and obvious which was best for each person, they could.
c22 6y ago
This happened to me too. I just printed out the return they generated and mailed it in myself. This is actually how tax preparation software used to always work and it definitely wasn't free back then.
- Cactus2018 6y ago
  This year I was unable to get to the print-out without paying
  - tvb12 6y ago
    If I remember correctly, you have to go through the IRS freefile page (here: https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/) to get to the "real" free version of turbotax. The link to the "free edition" on the main page of their site, confusingly, is something else. Turbotax's income limit for free filing is really low, though. Max income of $36,000.
    - squeaky-clean 6y ago
      I make more than that and didn't have to pay to file electronically. I downloaded turbotax through the iOS app store, using the app store search. Is this specifically for 1099 workers or something? (I get a W-2) Edit, did some searching and it's completely free if you're able to file via a 1040EZ, which I'm pretty sure was my method. I don't know too much about tax filing though, so maybe I'm confused about things (I mean, I'm definitely confused about tax things overall, haha). I'm 100% positive TurboTax didn't take any additional money from my refund though.
      - ac29 6y ago
        1040EZ was eliminated in tax year 2018: https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez
cactus2093 6y ago
Seems like TurboTax is probably not worth the hassle of trying to use for free. They try to steer you at every turn into accidentally accepting the paid features, and if you manage to make it through the maze there doesn't really seem to be much left that makes them better than any of the simpler competitors if you stick to the free tiers - no saving your information year over year, no automatically importing the super complex statements from robo-advisors like Betterment, etc. It also seems like most software engineers won't qualify for free file anyway, because it has an income limit of $69,000 a year as far as I can tell. One thing I genuinely wonder, at what point will digital/web-based services become the default for handling information by the government and every other large institution? Will it ever happen in my lifetime? Why are we still having to pay for 3rd party software to fill out physical forms? Even docusign, while it has become very prevalent for most contracts these days and is very convenient, is still requiring that you fill out a scanned image of a physical piece of paper, instead of just making the contracts web-based. Why?? Why doesn't the IRS just have a web app like turbotax for everyone to file taxes through? And if the answer is that the tax code is way too complicated that it's prohibitively expensive for the government to build a site as comprehensive as Turbotax, then fix it!
- pc86 6y ago
  > And if the answer is that the tax code is way too complicated that it's prohibitively expensive for the government to build a site as comprehensive as Turbotax, then fix it! "Fix it" only makes sense for bugs. It doesn't make sense for features. TurboTax, accounting firms, entire professional organizations (CPAs) live off of the fact that the tax code is hard to understand. Maybe it needs to be difficult to properly align incentives. Maybe it doesn't. But it's absolutely intentional.
  - thayne 6y ago
    Likewise lawyers live off of laws being hard to understand, and the legal system being hard to navigate. Fixing the US health care system would probably also destroy quite a few jobs in health insurance and medical billing. It turns out overcomplicated and wasteful systems also make jobs. So even if fixing the system would be better for society in the long run, all the lobbyists have to say is "doing that will destroy X jobs" and the politicians will be scared into inaction.
loosescrews 6y ago
I have tried nearly all of the DIY tax offerings out there. CreditKarma has a relatively new completely free offering that I feel rivals TurboTax in ease of use. I also feel that it is superior to paid offerings such as H&R Block. Another completely free offering is freetax.com. I used them for a few years, and while not quite as easy to use, it works well. Note that both of these free offerings include free state tax filing and have no income limits or up sells.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  I use TaxAct personally.
  - loosescrews 6y ago
    I tried TaxAct. It was the hardest to use of the bunch. In many cases it just has you fill out the real tax forms. Anyone who wants to fill out the tax forms themselves can do that for free, and TaxAct isn't even much cheaper than its significantly easier to use competitors.
    - wrycoder 6y ago
      They used to have a forms method and an interview method. If you were familiar with the IRS system, the forms method was very fast. It would be great for a CPA. Then they dropped the forms method. Now they look like TurboTax. I remember that filling out paper forms back in the day - especially before small electronic calculators - was a real pain. Especially when you made a change and had to roll everything up again!
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > CreditKarma has a relatively new completely free offering that I feel rivals TurboTax in ease of use. That's why Intuit bought them. Don't expect it to stick around. https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/24/intuit-credit-karma/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/24/intuit-credit-karma/
- bityard 6y ago
kristopolous 6y ago
there's a large number of other providers listed on the IRS's website (ignore the file for free part if you're above the threshold) https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ I don't want this to turn into a commercial for any particular provider but let's say I've made 6 figures and paid under $20 to file for multiple years now. How intuit can get away with charging $200 or whatever on the sly and almost nobody knowing about the multiple competitors who run relatively squeaky clean businesses at way more affordable prices should belong as a test-case in every business and marketing book, it's really something. They're actually far easier to use as well since they aren't employing dozens of sneaky tactics and evil design patterns to try to slide you into the "deluxe pro extreme package" or whatever. I would be shocked if intuit didn't constantly a/b test how to trick people - that's kinda their business model in the same way that blockbuster could only stay in business with late fees.

scott_s 6y ago

> Their UI is very nice though, especially for guiding people through a process that they almost intrinsically hate. Which is evidence towards the idea that if they wanted to make choosing the free or paid versions easy and obvious which was best for each person, they could.

c22 6y ago

This happened to me too. I just printed out the return they generated and mailed it in myself. This is actually how tax preparation software used to always work and it definitely wasn't free back then.

Cactus2018 6y ago
This year I was unable to get to the print-out without paying
- tvb12 6y ago
  If I remember correctly, you have to go through the IRS freefile page (here: https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/) to get to the "real" free version of turbotax. The link to the "free edition" on the main page of their site, confusingly, is something else. Turbotax's income limit for free filing is really low, though. Max income of $36,000.
  - squeaky-clean 6y ago
    I make more than that and didn't have to pay to file electronically. I downloaded turbotax through the iOS app store, using the app store search. Is this specifically for 1099 workers or something? (I get a W-2) Edit, did some searching and it's completely free if you're able to file via a 1040EZ, which I'm pretty sure was my method. I don't know too much about tax filing though, so maybe I'm confused about things (I mean, I'm definitely confused about tax things overall, haha). I'm 100% positive TurboTax didn't take any additional money from my refund though.
    - ac29 6y ago
      1040EZ was eliminated in tax year 2018: https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-1040-ez

cactus2093 6y ago

Seems like TurboTax is probably not worth the hassle of trying to use for free. They try to steer you at every turn into accidentally accepting the paid features, and if you manage to make it through the maze there doesn't really seem to be much left that makes them better than any of the simpler competitors if you stick to the free tiers - no saving your information year over year, no automatically importing the super complex statements from robo-advisors like Betterment, etc. It also seems like most software engineers won't qualify for free file anyway, because it has an income limit of $69,000 a year as far as I can tell. One thing I genuinely wonder, at what point will digital/web-based services become the default for handling information by the government and every other large institution? Will it ever happen in my lifetime? Why are we still having to pay for 3rd party software to fill out physical forms? Even docusign, while it has become very prevalent for most contracts these days and is very convenient, is still requiring that you fill out a scanned image of a physical piece of paper, instead of just making the contracts web-based. Why?? Why doesn't the IRS just have a web app like turbotax for everyone to file taxes through? And if the answer is that the tax code is way too complicated that it's prohibitively expensive for the government to build a site as comprehensive as Turbotax, then fix it!

pc86 6y ago
> And if the answer is that the tax code is way too complicated that it's prohibitively expensive for the government to build a site as comprehensive as Turbotax, then fix it! "Fix it" only makes sense for bugs. It doesn't make sense for features. TurboTax, accounting firms, entire professional organizations (CPAs) live off of the fact that the tax code is hard to understand. Maybe it needs to be difficult to properly align incentives. Maybe it doesn't. But it's absolutely intentional.
- thayne 6y ago
  Likewise lawyers live off of laws being hard to understand, and the legal system being hard to navigate. Fixing the US health care system would probably also destroy quite a few jobs in health insurance and medical billing. It turns out overcomplicated and wasteful systems also make jobs. So even if fixing the system would be better for society in the long run, all the lobbyists have to say is "doing that will destroy X jobs" and the politicians will be scared into inaction.

loosescrews 6y ago

I have tried nearly all of the DIY tax offerings out there. CreditKarma has a relatively new completely free offering that I feel rivals TurboTax in ease of use. I also feel that it is superior to paid offerings such as H&R Block. Another completely free offering is freetax.com. I used them for a few years, and while not quite as easy to use, it works well. Note that both of these free offerings include free state tax filing and have no income limits or up sells.

dragontamer 6y ago
I use TaxAct personally.
- loosescrews 6y ago
  I tried TaxAct. It was the hardest to use of the bunch. In many cases it just has you fill out the real tax forms. Anyone who wants to fill out the tax forms themselves can do that for free, and TaxAct isn't even much cheaper than its significantly easier to use competitors.
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    They used to have a forms method and an interview method. If you were familiar with the IRS system, the forms method was very fast. It would be great for a CPA. Then they dropped the forms method. Now they look like TurboTax. I remember that filling out paper forms back in the day - especially before small electronic calculators - was a real pain. Especially when you made a change and had to roll everything up again!
ceejayoz 6y ago
> CreditKarma has a relatively new completely free offering that I feel rivals TurboTax in ease of use. That's why Intuit bought them. Don't expect it to stick around. https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/24/intuit-credit-karma/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/24/intuit-credit-karma/
bityard 6y ago

kristopolous 6y ago

there's a large number of other providers listed on the IRS's website (ignore the file for free part if you're above the threshold) https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/ I don't want this to turn into a commercial for any particular provider but let's say I've made 6 figures and paid under $20 to file for multiple years now. How intuit can get away with charging $200 or whatever on the sly and almost nobody knowing about the multiple competitors who run relatively squeaky clean businesses at way more affordable prices should belong as a test-case in every business and marketing book, it's really something. They're actually far easier to use as well since they aren't employing dozens of sneaky tactics and evil design patterns to try to slide you into the "deluxe pro extreme package" or whatever. I would be shocked if intuit didn't constantly a/b test how to trick people - that's kinda their business model in the same way that blockbuster could only stay in business with late fees.