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Can anecdotally confirm. Sometimes it quite annoys me that those personality traits are so embedded in myself though, because it seems to constantly be a headbu

Can anecdotally confirm. Sometimes it quite annoys me that those personality traits are so embedded in myself though, because it seems to constantly be a headbutting of cultures that so many Americans on the coastal big cities just don't get or approve of, and love to condescendingly talk about that kind of personality as lesser or barbarous in some way. I love the mountains and freedom they offered me, the lessons they taught me, and the beauty and solitude from an exhausting world they provided. After the war when I became an atheist, I would tell others in the community when they asked me to go to church that the mountains are my church. All that said, I doubt it will last. There is a huge influx of people (not just retirees, but refugees from the coastal cities) who would be considered rich into mountain communities, driving out the locals by prices and changing the demographic hugely. I keep a close eye on land for sale and land parcels that used to be huge are starting to be divided into 5 acre parcels and sold off... I can already see the distant future of this, turning mountain towns into you have to be rich towns like Aspen, and it makes me very sad. I can't wait till we have independent space travel, which is when I believe the frontier spirit will be reborn again. Humanity will need it then again! Alas, I probably won't live that long.

mbostleman 6y ago
Same here. I moved to eastern Idaho 3 years ago from a lifetime in northern Ohio (born and raised). Oddly I immediately felt more at home here and still do. It just fits me and seems to be the opposite of the industrial / Motor City region of the Midwest. Of course, the coastal elitism that you're referring to is aimed at Midwesterners too, but I think my clash was with the collectivism of the unionized blue collar culture.
eanzenberg 6y ago
That’s the one constant with population growth. The remote parts of the world won’t be so remote as time goes on. On your point about space travel, it doesn’t even have to be that far. The moon or mars aren’t that terribly far on conventional rockets. If we could terraform mars for our arrival, though, that would be cool. Maybe this unlocks another explosion of population growth, similar to the industrial revolution and improvements in medicine?
dualboot 6y ago
>"headbutting of cultures that so many Americans on the coastal big cities just don't get or approve of, and love to condescendingly talk about that kind of personality as lesser or barbarous in some way." This cultural divide has deep roots in the power struggle that was created when the people who settled the Appalachian's figured out that converting fields of corn into distilled bottles of whisky was far more profitable since it could travel infinitely farther without spoilage along the trade routes. They were "dirt poor" prior to this because they could generate fresh produce that had a limited scope and value on the market. That's when the war on stills began and there was a very thorough campaign of misinformation about how "dumb hillbillies" were going to blow themselves up/make everyone blind trying to operate a simple still. It was really about the potential shift in economic power if that region was able to leverage vast lands for growing and creating highly profitable alcohol that could be sold across the country. That campaign/lobby was so effective that it still resonates to this day.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  That's an interesting take I hadn't really thought of before. Do you have any book or reading recommendations on the topic?
  - scruple 6y ago
    Not the GP and I don't have any book recommendations but, at least as a starting point, it begins with the history of the Whiskey Rebellion.
  - panzagl 6y ago
    "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer was the foundation of the Appalachian studies course I took a couple decades ago. Basically you had the old Tidewater aristocracy, the Puritans who supplanted them as the intellectual elite from the Revolution to the Civil War, and the Scots Irish who were kicked from the border marches to Ireland to America to Appalachia. Explains a lot of the class and religious differences that are still apparent in the red/blue divide.
  - libraryatnight 6y ago
vb6sp6 6y ago
> Sometimes it quite annoys me that those personality traits are so embedded in myself though, because it seems to constantly be a headbutting of cultures that so many Americans on the coastal big cities just don't get or approve of, and love to condescendingly talk about that kind of personality as lesser or barbarous in some way. "rugged individualists" always seem to care a lot about how they are viewed by "coastal elites". We'd all be a lot happier if we cared less about how we are viewed by others.
- bhupy 6y ago
  It begins to matter more when “coastal elites” don’t just view “rugged individualists” a certain way, but also wish to exert power/influence over them via policy.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Middle America (probably more accurate to say rural) non elites wish to exert just as much, if not more power over others via restricting individual’s choices of what they can consume or do with their body.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  It's not just about caring how I am viewed for no reason, it's that I have to deal with the culutural differences daily both professionally and personally, but mostly professionally. I keep my politics etc to myself in the workplace, but the coastal elites seem to want to shove theirs down everyones throats, even in the workplace, which is very jarring. It's one of the same reasons I fled the bible belt and went to DC for a while (only to find I disliked the east coast), but to see the similarities in dogmatism and tribalism between the bible belt and the coastal elites is... informative. I keep having this semi-irrational fear that the SV startup I work for will found out I'm not "one of them" and fire me for cultural differences.
  - vb6sp6 6y ago
    Ok, but you aren't special in this regard. I work in a red state, in a red county. My boss regularly praises Trump at work. Another claimed that his personal hero is George W Bush and said so in published interview in the biggest trade mag for our industry a few years ago. There are still office debates about the existence of WMDs in Iraq. Most try to shovel their conservative bullshit down my throat. And we haven't even touched on the religious bullshit that gets thrown around. But I don't give a fuck what these people think and i don't "allow" them to exert that type of influence over me. And if they fire me, I'll just go be a liberal atheist somewhere else (where I will also not give a fuck)
monktastic1 6y ago
One aspect that I can see being particularly troublesome is the "closely guarding their resources and distrusting strangers." I'm sure those traits were developed with good reason, but it can make forming relationships very difficult with the kind of personality that is by nature welcoming and trusting. While I would never describe that mindset as barbaric, it is true that I would like to see societies move toward an ideal where trust and generosity are the norm.
tartoran 6y ago
> said, I doubt it will last. There is a huge influx of people (not just retirees, but refugees from the coastal cities) who would be considered rich into mountain communities, driving out the locals by prices and changing the demographic hugely. I keep a close eye on land for sale and land parcels that used to be huge are starting to be divided into 5 acre parcels and sold off... I can already see the distant future of this, turning mountain towns into you have to be rich towns like Aspen, and it makes me very sad. I wouldn't worry too much about a large influx of people, there's more than enough land to accommodate the little influx - there aren't quite so many people who move up into the mountains and those can make a decent community and a healthy local economy. You can even migrate further into the wilderness, yes it sucks that you are forced to but there's a silver lining to all this.
tylerjwilk00 6y ago
This is happening where I live. Previously huge tracks of mountain and forest are slowly being cut up. However, it's the rich newcomers that are selfish with their land. When we were children we had ATVs/dirtbikes and could put in hundred miles a day of riding. Now many trails have gates and no trespassing signs. Used to be a sense of shared commonwealth amongst connected properties. Now, it's the "privatization" of nature and it sucks. I miss the old days. Also, totally get the condescension you speak of. "Oh. You do your own <plumbing,welding,lawn, automotive,...>! How quaint."
- jxramos 6y ago
  Where do these parcel divisions get recorded exactly? I thought it would be a really fascinating open data source record to capture all the timelines of land being divvied up and sold and when houses get built through some map timelapse videos.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - arminiusreturns 6y ago
    Unfortunately it depends on the state, and some states don't have electronic records of these sorts of things. There exists a whole subculture of people, some for research and some for profit motives, who stalk the dark halls of records buildings to glean that info. Other states however, I think you could probably manage that.
- objectivetruth 6y ago
  Counter-point: ATVs and dirtbikes are noisy and tear up terrain and don't belong in "nature" aka the private property of people that don't want to hear them or see their tracks.
  - tylerjwilk00 6y ago
    My eyes are wide open. I agree with private property. But we're not talking backyards and prestine grasslands. These are remote rocky old mining trails, logging trails, and train tracks. I ain't saying there is any easy solution. I just miss riding like I used to be able.
dr-detroit 6y ago
I live in the Midwest where its pan flat. There is a huge influx of people (not just retirees, but refugees from the coastal cities) who would be considered rich into all our thriving communities, driving out the locals by prices and changing the demographic hugely.

mbostleman 6y ago

Same here. I moved to eastern Idaho 3 years ago from a lifetime in northern Ohio (born and raised). Oddly I immediately felt more at home here and still do. It just fits me and seems to be the opposite of the industrial / Motor City region of the Midwest. Of course, the coastal elitism that you're referring to is aimed at Midwesterners too, but I think my clash was with the collectivism of the unionized blue collar culture.

eanzenberg 6y ago

That’s the one constant with population growth. The remote parts of the world won’t be so remote as time goes on. On your point about space travel, it doesn’t even have to be that far. The moon or mars aren’t that terribly far on conventional rockets. If we could terraform mars for our arrival, though, that would be cool. Maybe this unlocks another explosion of population growth, similar to the industrial revolution and improvements in medicine?

dualboot 6y ago

>"headbutting of cultures that so many Americans on the coastal big cities just don't get or approve of, and love to condescendingly talk about that kind of personality as lesser or barbarous in some way." This cultural divide has deep roots in the power struggle that was created when the people who settled the Appalachian's figured out that converting fields of corn into distilled bottles of whisky was far more profitable since it could travel infinitely farther without spoilage along the trade routes. They were "dirt poor" prior to this because they could generate fresh produce that had a limited scope and value on the market. That's when the war on stills began and there was a very thorough campaign of misinformation about how "dumb hillbillies" were going to blow themselves up/make everyone blind trying to operate a simple still. It was really about the potential shift in economic power if that region was able to leverage vast lands for growing and creating highly profitable alcohol that could be sold across the country. That campaign/lobby was so effective that it still resonates to this day.

arminiusreturns 6y ago
That's an interesting take I hadn't really thought of before. Do you have any book or reading recommendations on the topic?
- scruple 6y ago
  Not the GP and I don't have any book recommendations but, at least as a starting point, it begins with the history of the Whiskey Rebellion.
- panzagl 6y ago
  "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer was the foundation of the Appalachian studies course I took a couple decades ago. Basically you had the old Tidewater aristocracy, the Puritans who supplanted them as the intellectual elite from the Revolution to the Civil War, and the Scots Irish who were kicked from the border marches to Ireland to America to Appalachia. Explains a lot of the class and religious differences that are still apparent in the red/blue divide.
- libraryatnight 6y ago

vb6sp6 6y ago

> Sometimes it quite annoys me that those personality traits are so embedded in myself though, because it seems to constantly be a headbutting of cultures that so many Americans on the coastal big cities just don't get or approve of, and love to condescendingly talk about that kind of personality as lesser or barbarous in some way. "rugged individualists" always seem to care a lot about how they are viewed by "coastal elites". We'd all be a lot happier if we cared less about how we are viewed by others.

bhupy 6y ago
It begins to matter more when “coastal elites” don’t just view “rugged individualists” a certain way, but also wish to exert power/influence over them via policy.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Middle America (probably more accurate to say rural) non elites wish to exert just as much, if not more power over others via restricting individual’s choices of what they can consume or do with their body.
arminiusreturns 6y ago
It's not just about caring how I am viewed for no reason, it's that I have to deal with the culutural differences daily both professionally and personally, but mostly professionally. I keep my politics etc to myself in the workplace, but the coastal elites seem to want to shove theirs down everyones throats, even in the workplace, which is very jarring. It's one of the same reasons I fled the bible belt and went to DC for a while (only to find I disliked the east coast), but to see the similarities in dogmatism and tribalism between the bible belt and the coastal elites is... informative. I keep having this semi-irrational fear that the SV startup I work for will found out I'm not "one of them" and fire me for cultural differences.
- vb6sp6 6y ago
  Ok, but you aren't special in this regard. I work in a red state, in a red county. My boss regularly praises Trump at work. Another claimed that his personal hero is George W Bush and said so in published interview in the biggest trade mag for our industry a few years ago. There are still office debates about the existence of WMDs in Iraq. Most try to shovel their conservative bullshit down my throat. And we haven't even touched on the religious bullshit that gets thrown around. But I don't give a fuck what these people think and i don't "allow" them to exert that type of influence over me. And if they fire me, I'll just go be a liberal atheist somewhere else (where I will also not give a fuck)

monktastic1 6y ago

One aspect that I can see being particularly troublesome is the "closely guarding their resources and distrusting strangers." I'm sure those traits were developed with good reason, but it can make forming relationships very difficult with the kind of personality that is by nature welcoming and trusting. While I would never describe that mindset as barbaric, it is true that I would like to see societies move toward an ideal where trust and generosity are the norm.

tartoran 6y ago

> said, I doubt it will last. There is a huge influx of people (not just retirees, but refugees from the coastal cities) who would be considered rich into mountain communities, driving out the locals by prices and changing the demographic hugely. I keep a close eye on land for sale and land parcels that used to be huge are starting to be divided into 5 acre parcels and sold off... I can already see the distant future of this, turning mountain towns into you have to be rich towns like Aspen, and it makes me very sad. I wouldn't worry too much about a large influx of people, there's more than enough land to accommodate the little influx - there aren't quite so many people who move up into the mountains and those can make a decent community and a healthy local economy. You can even migrate further into the wilderness, yes it sucks that you are forced to but there's a silver lining to all this.

tylerjwilk00 6y ago

This is happening where I live. Previously huge tracks of mountain and forest are slowly being cut up. However, it's the rich newcomers that are selfish with their land. When we were children we had ATVs/dirtbikes and could put in hundred miles a day of riding. Now many trails have gates and no trespassing signs. Used to be a sense of shared commonwealth amongst connected properties. Now, it's the "privatization" of nature and it sucks. I miss the old days. Also, totally get the condescension you speak of. "Oh. You do your own <plumbing,welding,lawn, automotive,...>! How quaint."

jxramos 6y ago
Where do these parcel divisions get recorded exactly? I thought it would be a really fascinating open data source record to capture all the timelines of land being divvied up and sold and when houses get built through some map timelapse videos.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  Unfortunately it depends on the state, and some states don't have electronic records of these sorts of things. There exists a whole subculture of people, some for research and some for profit motives, who stalk the dark halls of records buildings to glean that info. Other states however, I think you could probably manage that.
objectivetruth 6y ago
Counter-point: ATVs and dirtbikes are noisy and tear up terrain and don't belong in "nature" aka the private property of people that don't want to hear them or see their tracks.
- tylerjwilk00 6y ago
  My eyes are wide open. I agree with private property. But we're not talking backyards and prestine grasslands. These are remote rocky old mining trails, logging trails, and train tracks. I ain't saying there is any easy solution. I just miss riding like I used to be able.

dr-detroit 6y ago

I live in the Midwest where its pan flat. There is a huge influx of people (not just retirees, but refugees from the coastal cities) who would be considered rich into all our thriving communities, driving out the locals by prices and changing the demographic hugely.