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It's funny how attempts at creating utopia always seem to end in horrific bloody violence.

arethuza 6y ago
Almost certainly because the attempts at creating "utopia" aren't anything of the sort - they are simple power grabs by whoever happens to be the most ruthless bunch of thugs.
- growlist 6y ago
  ah, the 'wrong type of communism' argument?
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    I don't think so. I think the argument is that it's all the wrong type of communism, and the wrong type of socialism, and of anarchy, and the wrong type of every other "this will bring us to paradise" idea. And it's wrong, not because the ideas are necessarily wrong, but because they're run by people. Specifically, they're run by people (call them type 1) who think that having other people (type 2) believe in a utopian ideal is a great way for type 1 people to get put in positions of power. The type 2 people put them in such positions so that they can create the utopia, but the type 1 people don't do that once they get in power. Instead, they just do whatever lets them hold on to the power. It's not just the wrong type of communism. It's the wrong type of human beings. Personally, I think that this take is somewhat too cynical... but only somewhat. There are people who are genuinely trying to make things better. Not nearly as many as are saying that they're trying to do so, but more than zero.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Well, I was describing tyrannical power. Certainly I would agree that there are many people who genuinely want to help rather than to achieve power for its own sake. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
      - growlist 6y ago
        Trust me, my communist Welsh coal-mining grandfather would be disgusted by the modern left.
  - andrekandre 6y ago
    there are many types of utopia i can think of, one could say fukuyama's "the end of history" was a declaration of capitalist utopia (and we all know how that turned out)... nothing is ever perfect, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt imagine and strive for a better society, i think thats the big point

Almost certainly because the attempts at creating "utopia" aren't anything of the sort - they are simple power grabs by whoever happens to be the most ruthless bunch of thugs.

growlist 6y ago
ah, the 'wrong type of communism' argument?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  I don't think so. I think the argument is that it's all the wrong type of communism, and the wrong type of socialism, and of anarchy, and the wrong type of every other "this will bring us to paradise" idea. And it's wrong, not because the ideas are necessarily wrong, but because they're run by people. Specifically, they're run by people (call them type 1) who think that having other people (type 2) believe in a utopian ideal is a great way for type 1 people to get put in positions of power. The type 2 people put them in such positions so that they can create the utopia, but the type 1 people don't do that once they get in power. Instead, they just do whatever lets them hold on to the power. It's not just the wrong type of communism. It's the wrong type of human beings. Personally, I think that this take is somewhat too cynical... but only somewhat. There are people who are genuinely trying to make things better. Not nearly as many as are saying that they're trying to do so, but more than zero.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Well, I was describing tyrannical power. Certainly I would agree that there are many people who genuinely want to help rather than to achieve power for its own sake. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
    - growlist 6y ago
      Trust me, my communist Welsh coal-mining grandfather would be disgusted by the modern left.
- andrekandre 6y ago
  there are many types of utopia i can think of, one could say fukuyama's "the end of history" was a declaration of capitalist utopia (and we all know how that turned out)... nothing is ever perfect, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt imagine and strive for a better society, i think thats the big point