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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than und

by seneca 6y ago

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis

arethuza 6y ago
I agree with Orwell more on the motivation behind tyranny: "No one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."
- growlist 6y ago
  It's funny how attempts at creating utopia always seem to end in horrific bloody violence.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Almost certainly because the attempts at creating "utopia" aren't anything of the sort - they are simple power grabs by whoever happens to be the most ruthless bunch of thugs.
    - growlist 6y ago
      ah, the 'wrong type of communism' argument?
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        I don't think so. I think the argument is that it's all the wrong type of communism, and the wrong type of socialism, and of anarchy, and the wrong type of every other "this will bring us to paradise" idea. And it's wrong, not because the ideas are necessarily wrong, but because they're run by people. Specifically, they're run by people (call them type 1) who think that having other people (type 2) believe in a utopian ideal is a great way for type 1 people to get put in positions of power. The type 2 people put them in such positions so that they can create the utopia, but the type 1 people don't do that once they get in power. Instead, they just do whatever lets them hold on to the power. It's not just the wrong type of communism. It's the wrong type of human beings. Personally, I think that this take is somewhat too cynical... but only somewhat. There are people who are genuinely trying to make things better. Not nearly as many as are saying that they're trying to do so, but more than zero.
        arethuza 6y ago
        Well, I was describing tyrannical power. Certainly I would agree that there are many people who genuinely want to help rather than to achieve power for its own sake. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
        growlist 6y ago
        Trust me, my communist Welsh coal-mining grandfather would be disgusted by the modern left.
      - andrekandre 6y ago
        there are many types of utopia i can think of, one could say fukuyama's "the end of history" was a declaration of capitalist utopia (and we all know how that turned out)... nothing is ever perfect, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt imagine and strive for a better society, i think thats the big point

by seneca 6y ago

arethuza 6y ago

I agree with Orwell more on the motivation behind tyranny: "No one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

growlist 6y ago
It's funny how attempts at creating utopia always seem to end in horrific bloody violence.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Almost certainly because the attempts at creating "utopia" aren't anything of the sort - they are simple power grabs by whoever happens to be the most ruthless bunch of thugs.
  - growlist 6y ago
    ah, the 'wrong type of communism' argument?
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      I don't think so. I think the argument is that it's all the wrong type of communism, and the wrong type of socialism, and of anarchy, and the wrong type of every other "this will bring us to paradise" idea. And it's wrong, not because the ideas are necessarily wrong, but because they're run by people. Specifically, they're run by people (call them type 1) who think that having other people (type 2) believe in a utopian ideal is a great way for type 1 people to get put in positions of power. The type 2 people put them in such positions so that they can create the utopia, but the type 1 people don't do that once they get in power. Instead, they just do whatever lets them hold on to the power. It's not just the wrong type of communism. It's the wrong type of human beings. Personally, I think that this take is somewhat too cynical... but only somewhat. There are people who are genuinely trying to make things better. Not nearly as many as are saying that they're trying to do so, but more than zero.
      - arethuza 6y ago
        Well, I was describing tyrannical power. Certainly I would agree that there are many people who genuinely want to help rather than to achieve power for its own sake. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan
        growlist 6y ago
        Trust me, my communist Welsh coal-mining grandfather would be disgusted by the modern left.
    - andrekandre 6y ago
      there are many types of utopia i can think of, one could say fukuyama's "the end of history" was a declaration of capitalist utopia (and we all know how that turned out)... nothing is ever perfect, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt imagine and strive for a better society, i think thats the big point