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If the international students I've met are any indication, trying to win the hearts and minds of Chinese nationals is a lost cause. It's not a problem of inform

If the international students I've met are any indication, trying to win the hearts and minds of Chinese nationals is a lost cause. It's not a problem of information. The problem is they already know what the CCP does and they agree with it on the basis of it being necessary for the good of society.

alisonkisk 6y ago
You are seeing them in their first moments outside of the complete control of the Chinese Communist Party. Deprogramming takes time.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  You've got to be kidding me. Why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? You may not agree with them because you have different values, but that's very different from claiming that their opinions are illegitimate and merely a result of "brainwashing". I find it very strange (understatement) that on the one hand people say they support the Chinese people, but on the other hand when Chinese people have a different opinion, then those Chinese people are dismissed as being brainwashed, a paid shill, spies, etc. Way to dehumanize them.
  - abc-xyz 6y ago
    I’d say being brainwashed is the most generous assumption you could make about someone supporting the CCP.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Oh, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the past 40 years have been the best out of 4000 years, the fact that 800+ million people have been lifted out of poverty, that dirty streets have been transformed to clean ones, that famines have disappeared and everybody has enough to eat, that violent crimes have nearly all disappeared and the streets are safe. I don't say this because I've been fed propaganda, I say this because I saw it with my own eyes. When I grew up, nearly nobody travelled abroad. 15 years before I was born, people couldn't choose what to wear, what work to do, where to live. All of that has changed, and today hundreds of millions of Chinese travel abroad, and they nearly all return voluntarily. Some choose to emigrate, but that number declines every year because China gets nicer every year. Before you accuse me of being brainwashed: the above is corroborated by Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN Security Council head. Is he brainwashed too? I'd say your opinion is just due to lack of perspective. There are more things that are important than the ability to express political dissent. Freedom from hunger, freedom from being robbed, freedom to get medical care without being bankrupted, freedom to travel. All of these aspects HAVE improved. Of course there are still many problems. But you're judging China through a single dimension only. That's not fair.
      - Causality1 6y ago
        Why is China's relative improvement even remotely relevant to whether or not we should allow communications systems it controls to operate within the United States?
  - themacguffinman 6y ago
    Because the Chinese government doesn't allow dissent, it doesn't allow free expression. You can't reasonably expect me to believe they all have different values when dissenting ideas are banned from the country and vocal dissent results in disappearances and imprisonment. And yes, this includes dissent expressed overseas, look up Operation Fox Hunt. I find it very strange that on the one hand people say the Chinese people just all have different values, but on the other hand ignore the terrifyingly huge totalitarian propaganda infrastructure that prevents any dissenting ideas from being legitimately expressed and discussed in China.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      That's because you evaluate "good vs bad" on a single dimension only. There are other things that are at least as important as the freedom to express political dissent. Such as freedom from hunger, freedom from poverty, freedom from being robbed, freedom to travel where you want. If you compare China from 40 years ago to China today, then these are literally the best 40 years in 4000 years. Yes not everything is perfect, yes there is limited ability to dissent. But come on, when your children were starving, your house was run down, the streets were polluted and dirty, your children and belongings were always at risk of being abducted by criminals, you couldn't choose what clothes to wear; and then flash forward 40 years later, ALL of that has changed, is it so hard to imagine that some people could be grateful for the progress even if not everything is perfect? When your country has been at war and revolution for 100 years, due to different factions that kept fighting each other until the end of days, is it so hard to imagine that one day you're tired of that, and desire unity over conflict? Live and let live. I don't say you have to value that. It's fine for western countries to value the ability to politically dissent, as a primary value. But why do you have to force that value down the throat of others, that have had a very different history?
      - themacguffinman 6y ago
        I wasn't evaluating good or bad, just don't tell me that the Chinese people can be truly said to value anything when their government doesn't allow them to freely express anything other than what the CCP values. You asked why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? Here's your answer. I'll leave your beautifully written apologia of totalitarianism alone.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >> You are seeing them in their first moments outside of the complete control of the Chinese Communist Party. Deprogramming takes time. > You've got to be kidding me. Why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? You may not agree with them because you have different values, but that's very different from claiming that their opinions are illegitimate and merely a result of "brainwashing". After 10 years or so, some of my Chinese friends are a little embarrassed by some of the things they said/positions they took when they first came here as students.
- qkhhly 6y ago
  I have been in the US for ten years. I came from China after undergrad and I got a PhD from a top US University. I still do not agree with banning WeChat/Tiktok on the basis of "national security" or "privacy". In your mind, I am still "programmed". To me, this is simple and plain arrogance.

alisonkisk 6y ago

You are seeing them in their first moments outside of the complete control of the Chinese Communist Party. Deprogramming takes time.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
You've got to be kidding me. Why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? You may not agree with them because you have different values, but that's very different from claiming that their opinions are illegitimate and merely a result of "brainwashing". I find it very strange (understatement) that on the one hand people say they support the Chinese people, but on the other hand when Chinese people have a different opinion, then those Chinese people are dismissed as being brainwashed, a paid shill, spies, etc. Way to dehumanize them.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  I’d say being brainwashed is the most generous assumption you could make about someone supporting the CCP.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Oh, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that the past 40 years have been the best out of 4000 years, the fact that 800+ million people have been lifted out of poverty, that dirty streets have been transformed to clean ones, that famines have disappeared and everybody has enough to eat, that violent crimes have nearly all disappeared and the streets are safe. I don't say this because I've been fed propaganda, I say this because I saw it with my own eyes. When I grew up, nearly nobody travelled abroad. 15 years before I was born, people couldn't choose what to wear, what work to do, where to live. All of that has changed, and today hundreds of millions of Chinese travel abroad, and they nearly all return voluntarily. Some choose to emigrate, but that number declines every year because China gets nicer every year. Before you accuse me of being brainwashed: the above is corroborated by Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN Security Council head. Is he brainwashed too? I'd say your opinion is just due to lack of perspective. There are more things that are important than the ability to express political dissent. Freedom from hunger, freedom from being robbed, freedom to get medical care without being bankrupted, freedom to travel. All of these aspects HAVE improved. Of course there are still many problems. But you're judging China through a single dimension only. That's not fair.
    - Causality1 6y ago
      Why is China's relative improvement even remotely relevant to whether or not we should allow communications systems it controls to operate within the United States?
- themacguffinman 6y ago
  Because the Chinese government doesn't allow dissent, it doesn't allow free expression. You can't reasonably expect me to believe they all have different values when dissenting ideas are banned from the country and vocal dissent results in disappearances and imprisonment. And yes, this includes dissent expressed overseas, look up Operation Fox Hunt. I find it very strange that on the one hand people say the Chinese people just all have different values, but on the other hand ignore the terrifyingly huge totalitarian propaganda infrastructure that prevents any dissenting ideas from being legitimately expressed and discussed in China.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    That's because you evaluate "good vs bad" on a single dimension only. There are other things that are at least as important as the freedom to express political dissent. Such as freedom from hunger, freedom from poverty, freedom from being robbed, freedom to travel where you want. If you compare China from 40 years ago to China today, then these are literally the best 40 years in 4000 years. Yes not everything is perfect, yes there is limited ability to dissent. But come on, when your children were starving, your house was run down, the streets were polluted and dirty, your children and belongings were always at risk of being abducted by criminals, you couldn't choose what clothes to wear; and then flash forward 40 years later, ALL of that has changed, is it so hard to imagine that some people could be grateful for the progress even if not everything is perfect? When your country has been at war and revolution for 100 years, due to different factions that kept fighting each other until the end of days, is it so hard to imagine that one day you're tired of that, and desire unity over conflict? Live and let live. I don't say you have to value that. It's fine for western countries to value the ability to politically dissent, as a primary value. But why do you have to force that value down the throat of others, that have had a very different history?
    - themacguffinman 6y ago
      I wasn't evaluating good or bad, just don't tell me that the Chinese people can be truly said to value anything when their government doesn't allow them to freely express anything other than what the CCP values. You asked why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? Here's your answer. I'll leave your beautifully written apologia of totalitarianism alone.
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> You are seeing them in their first moments outside of the complete control of the Chinese Communist Party. Deprogramming takes time. > You've got to be kidding me. Why can't they have a genuine opinion of their own? You may not agree with them because you have different values, but that's very different from claiming that their opinions are illegitimate and merely a result of "brainwashing". After 10 years or so, some of my Chinese friends are a little embarrassed by some of the things they said/positions they took when they first came here as students.
qkhhly 6y ago
I have been in the US for ten years. I came from China after undergrad and I got a PhD from a top US University. I still do not agree with banning WeChat/Tiktok on the basis of "national security" or "privacy". In your mind, I am still "programmed". To me, this is simple and plain arrogance.