5 ms·

If you don't mind me asking, why would one give up a cushy, well paid attorney career and choose software engineering? Software engineering compensation _tops o

by m0zg 6y ago

If you don't mind me asking, why would one give up a cushy, well paid attorney career and choose software engineering? Software engineering compensation _tops out_ below where an experienced attorney compensation _begins_. The least I've ever paid a lawyer was $250/hr.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago
maybe there are too many lawyers and the field is thus not as well remunerated as you think https://www.thoughtco.com/are-there-too-many-lawyers-4026025 https://www.thoughtco.com/are-there-too-many-lawyers-4026025
- m0zg 6y ago
  $250 is generic "business contract review" lawyer. Not any kind of distinguished legal scholar. And I had to look pretty hard to find a decent one that didn't cost twice that.
austincheney 6y ago
To be fair lawyers are worth more than senior software developers, but not too much more. That $250-$750 per hour is the business rate not the profit that goes to the attorney. If an attorney works at a large firm most of that goes back to the firm. If the attorney goes out of their own they have personal business expenses to account for. As a software developer I bring home more than some attorneys I have met. I am not working a FAANG making buckets of cash either.
swyx 6y ago
IANAL but just to point out a couple obvious points: - the lawyer doesn't receive the full 250, half of it(?) goes to business/partnership - afaik many lawyers under-bill their hours, i'm not sure why (beyond "competition") but it's a common practice - the job itself may not be enjoyable at some point and you may desire more creative pursuits
- JayPeaEm 6y ago
  - Sounds about right. Few friends (Engineering/Tree Lawyers) say you can get a bit more depending on your niche. - Many Lawyers under bill for fear of losing/surrendering their license [1] or squeeze in their Model Rule 6.1 hours [2] - I'm seeing more lawyers amass some wealth, get burnt out, and then jump over to more creative or altruistic endeavours with less stress; can't blame them. [1] https://www.thelawforlawyerstoday.com/2019/12/4739/ https://www.thelawforlawyerstoday.com/2019/12/4739/ [2] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources/pro_bono/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources...
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
I mean, you can say the same about plumbers, to an extent. Many charge $100-200 an hour, more for the first hour, plus travel fee and service charge, and may skim a profit on the parts they use as well. Either you're an entrepreneur, and your hourly wage has to pay for all kinds of costs, including time not spent working, getting clients, equipment, training blablabla. Or you're an employee and your take-home pay can be completely detached from the pricing to your clients. When I started my career in a legal/financial firm as a junior my hourly rate was $200 and my hourly pay was about $15, for example. In those days I also worked a lot of overtime and chargeability requirements will drive you mad. Also in many firms you quickly specialise leading to sometimes boring work. On the one hand every legal matter is different and has its own quirks, challenges and interesting unique aspects. On the other hand, when you specialise in a certain field, you also constantly work on similar cases with similar references and jurisprudence, and you indeed often end up filling in templates for standard letters, contracts, motions etc, because the bulk of the substance will be the same over and over. Point being, the $15 an hour also came with mind-numbing work with unhealthy workhours and poor work/life balance. That's just one of many stories, of course and all jobs have their issues. Some lawyers have a great job/life. But there's also plenty of people who may enjoy programming much more.
dimmke 6y ago
In the U.S. only a very small percentage of lawyers ever get to the point where they make $250 an hour, and even if they do they only have a certain amount of years they can earn that much then if they don't make partner at whatever firm they're at they get put out to pasture. During the time they're making that much money they're basically trapped working insane hours at one firm. Most lawyers don't even make six figures. Also, they can get disbarred if they make a mistake. Software engineering allows for higher earnings for your entire career (though the ceiling might be lower on earnings), is less stressful and doesn't demand as many hours (in general) doesn't have a regulatory body that can take away your right to work if you get in trouble.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm not sure how likely disbarring is for an innocent mistake. But I agree with your basic premise. Sure, making partner at a white shoe New York law firm is not a bad gig if you're into it and have been OK with the insane hours to get there. I did some work for one of those firms once and got pretty well paid for it (expert witness work). But, you could also say that being an English professor can be a pretty good gig--if you're tenured at an Ivy League college. Which doesn't mean it's actually a great career choice given you're more likely to be teaching as an adjunct at a couple different community colleges or in a public high school with your expensive PhD.
- willj 6y ago
  Disbarring is really not that common [1][2]. [1] "Disbarment is quite rare: in 2011, only 1,046 lawyers were disbarred." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment [2] https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/getting-disbarred-is-harder-than-you-think-915832 https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/getting-disbarred-is-harde...
  - dimmke 6y ago
    Yes, but it's always there as an option if the lawyer doesn't do what they want them to. Also, you can get in this kind of trouble for criminal charges unrelated to work done at your day job. I've known lawyers who got into trouble with the bar over getting a DUI or drug charges. That kind of risk just doesn't really exist in software engineering beyond regular criminal background checks.
asdfman123 6y ago
Software is a cushy, well paid job too. And keep in mind there are a lot of people who enter fields like law because it's the "default" thing to do if you're a good student who doesn't know what they want out of life yet. Lots of lawyers out there who are at best bored, and at worst filled with revulsion about their day job. That's not a dig on law, but societal expectations.
tannhauser23 6y ago
I started as a lawyer then switched to programming. Law is cushy in the sense that you work in a nice office. But the constant stress, endless "emergency" deadlines, missed anniversaries and celebrations, unreasonable clients, pressure to bill bill bill, then to earn earn earn... Then there's the work itself. I was in litigation, handling lawsuits between enormous corporations. The first few years of my career were spent in doc review 'dungeons', going through millions of pages of documents to find 'relevant' and 'hot' docs. Then as I became more senior, I was bombarded with one discovery motion after that were often filled with toxic attacks against the other side ("those bastards hid these documents! blah blah blah"). It didn't change much once I began doing 'substantial' work: litigation, by its nature, is intellectual combat. Being immersed in that kind of knife-fighting 24/7, week after week, wore me down. Now I'm a software engineer and I love it. Work is interesting, hours are humane, and I genuinely enjoy collaborating with my colleagues to build new things. Sure, I don't make as much as I did in law. But the evenings and weekends I can spend with my family, my mind at rest, are priceless. Plus, software engineers make plenty of money.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  Damn, I always felt like a failure for not going into medicine or lawyer and now I feel like I may have chosen the right path. I did well in school but didn't have the 13 years for medicine or the $300,000 for law school... instead I got my little Computer Science bachelors. If you're early on in your career, I'd recommend the free only Computer Science degree (DIY route -> https://github.com/ossu/computer-science https://github.com/ossu/computer-science) and eventually getting a Master's if you want to go into management (or alternatively just load up on certs)

by m0zg 6y ago

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

maybe there are too many lawyers and the field is thus not as well remunerated as you think https://www.thoughtco.com/are-there-too-many-lawyers-4026025 https://www.thoughtco.com/are-there-too-many-lawyers-4026025

m0zg 6y ago
$250 is generic "business contract review" lawyer. Not any kind of distinguished legal scholar. And I had to look pretty hard to find a decent one that didn't cost twice that.

austincheney 6y ago

To be fair lawyers are worth more than senior software developers, but not too much more. That $250-$750 per hour is the business rate not the profit that goes to the attorney. If an attorney works at a large firm most of that goes back to the firm. If the attorney goes out of their own they have personal business expenses to account for. As a software developer I bring home more than some attorneys I have met. I am not working a FAANG making buckets of cash either.

swyx 6y ago

IANAL but just to point out a couple obvious points: - the lawyer doesn't receive the full 250, half of it(?) goes to business/partnership - afaik many lawyers under-bill their hours, i'm not sure why (beyond "competition") but it's a common practice - the job itself may not be enjoyable at some point and you may desire more creative pursuits

JayPeaEm 6y ago
- Sounds about right. Few friends (Engineering/Tree Lawyers) say you can get a bit more depending on your niche. - Many Lawyers under bill for fear of losing/surrendering their license [1] or squeeze in their Model Rule 6.1 hours [2] - I'm seeing more lawyers amass some wealth, get burnt out, and then jump over to more creative or altruistic endeavours with less stress; can't blame them. [1] https://www.thelawforlawyerstoday.com/2019/12/4739/ https://www.thelawforlawyerstoday.com/2019/12/4739/ [2] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources/pro_bono/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources...

IkmoIkmo 6y ago

I mean, you can say the same about plumbers, to an extent. Many charge $100-200 an hour, more for the first hour, plus travel fee and service charge, and may skim a profit on the parts they use as well. Either you're an entrepreneur, and your hourly wage has to pay for all kinds of costs, including time not spent working, getting clients, equipment, training blablabla. Or you're an employee and your take-home pay can be completely detached from the pricing to your clients. When I started my career in a legal/financial firm as a junior my hourly rate was $200 and my hourly pay was about $15, for example. In those days I also worked a lot of overtime and chargeability requirements will drive you mad. Also in many firms you quickly specialise leading to sometimes boring work. On the one hand every legal matter is different and has its own quirks, challenges and interesting unique aspects. On the other hand, when you specialise in a certain field, you also constantly work on similar cases with similar references and jurisprudence, and you indeed often end up filling in templates for standard letters, contracts, motions etc, because the bulk of the substance will be the same over and over. Point being, the $15 an hour also came with mind-numbing work with unhealthy workhours and poor work/life balance. That's just one of many stories, of course and all jobs have their issues. Some lawyers have a great job/life. But there's also plenty of people who may enjoy programming much more.

dimmke 6y ago

In the U.S. only a very small percentage of lawyers ever get to the point where they make $250 an hour, and even if they do they only have a certain amount of years they can earn that much then if they don't make partner at whatever firm they're at they get put out to pasture. During the time they're making that much money they're basically trapped working insane hours at one firm. Most lawyers don't even make six figures. Also, they can get disbarred if they make a mistake. Software engineering allows for higher earnings for your entire career (though the ceiling might be lower on earnings), is less stressful and doesn't demand as many hours (in general) doesn't have a regulatory body that can take away your right to work if you get in trouble.

ghaff 6y ago
I'm not sure how likely disbarring is for an innocent mistake. But I agree with your basic premise. Sure, making partner at a white shoe New York law firm is not a bad gig if you're into it and have been OK with the insane hours to get there. I did some work for one of those firms once and got pretty well paid for it (expert witness work). But, you could also say that being an English professor can be a pretty good gig--if you're tenured at an Ivy League college. Which doesn't mean it's actually a great career choice given you're more likely to be teaching as an adjunct at a couple different community colleges or in a public high school with your expensive PhD.
willj 6y ago
Disbarring is really not that common [1][2]. [1] "Disbarment is quite rare: in 2011, only 1,046 lawyers were disbarred." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disbarment [2] https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/getting-disbarred-is-harder-than-you-think-915832 https://www.rocketlawyer.com/blog/getting-disbarred-is-harde...
- dimmke 6y ago
  Yes, but it's always there as an option if the lawyer doesn't do what they want them to. Also, you can get in this kind of trouble for criminal charges unrelated to work done at your day job. I've known lawyers who got into trouble with the bar over getting a DUI or drug charges. That kind of risk just doesn't really exist in software engineering beyond regular criminal background checks.

asdfman123 6y ago

Software is a cushy, well paid job too. And keep in mind there are a lot of people who enter fields like law because it's the "default" thing to do if you're a good student who doesn't know what they want out of life yet. Lots of lawyers out there who are at best bored, and at worst filled with revulsion about their day job. That's not a dig on law, but societal expectations.

tannhauser23 6y ago

I started as a lawyer then switched to programming. Law is cushy in the sense that you work in a nice office. But the constant stress, endless "emergency" deadlines, missed anniversaries and celebrations, unreasonable clients, pressure to bill bill bill, then to earn earn earn... Then there's the work itself. I was in litigation, handling lawsuits between enormous corporations. The first few years of my career were spent in doc review 'dungeons', going through millions of pages of documents to find 'relevant' and 'hot' docs. Then as I became more senior, I was bombarded with one discovery motion after that were often filled with toxic attacks against the other side ("those bastards hid these documents! blah blah blah"). It didn't change much once I began doing 'substantial' work: litigation, by its nature, is intellectual combat. Being immersed in that kind of knife-fighting 24/7, week after week, wore me down. Now I'm a software engineer and I love it. Work is interesting, hours are humane, and I genuinely enjoy collaborating with my colleagues to build new things. Sure, I don't make as much as I did in law. But the evenings and weekends I can spend with my family, my mind at rest, are priceless. Plus, software engineers make plenty of money.

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
Damn, I always felt like a failure for not going into medicine or lawyer and now I feel like I may have chosen the right path. I did well in school but didn't have the 13 years for medicine or the $300,000 for law school... instead I got my little Computer Science bachelors. If you're early on in your career, I'd recommend the free only Computer Science degree (DIY route -> https://github.com/ossu/computer-science https://github.com/ossu/computer-science) and eventually getting a Master's if you want to go into management (or alternatively just load up on certs)