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Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel? Seriously

Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel? Seriously in reality the specifics of any sort of wild situation like the one you describe matter. Which countries? Which currency? Which kind of illegal behavior? And (I ask out of ignorance) in this scenario you describe why would whatever group managing whatever bitcoin exchange or whatever is being used remain virtuous and not charge a 30% markup themselves?

wheels 6y ago
I, for example, have friends that use Bitcoin to move money in and out of Zimbabwe.
fit2rule 6y ago
Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, Kosovo, Venezuela, El Salvador: these are all places where war and strife and economic turmoil and the Wests' sanctions have led a significant number of their citizens to use Bitcoin - and other cryptocurrencies - to manage their lives and feed themselves, and their families. It beggars belief that someone would so callously call the situation in these countries 'hypothetical'. Please, inform yourself about the war and strife that is occurring outside your own bubble. Its very important that we in the West stop ignoring the plight of the people our military industrial complex is targeting with their weapons. Bitcoin has held things together in many such places. Also: Russia.
- adwn 6y ago
  > Please, inform yourself about the war and strife that is occurring outside your own bubble. User adamsea is informing himself, that's why he's asking a question here.
  - IcePic 6y ago
    Yeah, I didn't see the questioning as "is there really war someplace right now?" but rather "is there really a place where you (or your grandparents) can get bread and milk for bitcoins when normal money collapsed?"
    - int_19h 6y ago
      We were specifically talking about BTC as a way to transfer money, as opposed to being used as money itself. I can't think of any place where you'd buy bread with BTC, but there are a few where you might be receiving BTC transfers, cashing them out locally, and using that money. A hawala based on blockchain rather than pure trust, so to speak.
      - fit2rule 6y ago
        You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Just because people are starving behind economic blockades and sanctions and mafia hell, doesn't mean they don't RTFM. (Oh, and you can use BTC on the street, all over the world.)
        adamsea 6y ago
        > You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Shouldn't we amend that statement to be "You can use bitcoin to buy anything which is being sold by some other bitcoin user?" ;) Which sure, is potentially anything/anyone, but will obviously vary on circumstances.
        int_19h 6y ago
        > You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Bitcoin users are a tiny, tiny percentage of "anyone".
viralpoetry 6y ago
Fearing return to drachma, some Greeks use bitcoin to dodge capital controls https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-greece-bitcoin/fearing-return-to-drachma-some-greeks-use-bitcoin-to-dodge-capital-controls-idUKKCN0PD19S20150703 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-greece-bitcoin/f... WikiLeaks may have amassed more than $46 million in Bitcoin based on the number of coins held by its known wallet address. https://bitcoinist.com/wikileaks-has-received-more-than-46-million-in-bitcoin/ https://bitcoinist.com/wikileaks-has-received-more-than-46-m...
Muromec 6y ago
> Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel? That indeed is a bunch of real situations that have happened to me in 2014-2015 and some of that is still a thing. Check your privileges, sweet summer child. Like seriously — for the first 30 years of my life it was outright illegal to have a bank account in a foreign country in my name. Not enforceable in practice, except I can’t make wires between two. So 2014, fucking Russia is being Russia again, USD wired from foreign clients goes in... and is sold for UAH at government mandated rate. I sit in a third country, withdraw it through ATM. Guess what? It is converted back to USD at a market rate. Of course you can still bring cash or btc in and sell it at market rate plus some margin, but not 30 damn percent. Sometimes it’s less dramatic and web interface of your bank doesn’t have regexp for IBAN format of destination country. Ridiculous but have happened as well, so I have proxied IBAN that starts with GB instead of UA and that always works.
- adwn 6y ago
  > Check your privileges, sweet summer child. Please don't do this here. It is needlessly condescending and insulting.
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    Some people feel insulted when someone thinks that their real problems are imaginary, so a hostile reaction is understandable, I guess.
  - Muromec 6y ago
    My bad. The comment I replied to was so tone-deaf, that I mistaken myself being on reddit.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    It is, but maybe start telling op? "Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel"
Izikiel43 6y ago
Argentina is literally in that situation now. The government charges a surplus 30% tax on any foreign currency purchase (cash, Netflix, anything outside the country), and only allows you to buy 200 usd a month legally. The inflation rate is over 50% there, Bitcoin is more stable than the Argentinian peso. Basically, the government has made it illegal for you to legally save money on a different currency than the Argentinian peso.
- davidgerard 6y ago
  and yet, bitcoin use is still negligible.
  - Izikiel43 6y ago
    Never said it wasn’t, o just mentioned a case where it’s useful.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    Sounds like it's actually quite popular there now https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/economic-uncertainty-restrictions-in-argentina-show-power-of-bitcoin-2019-12-11 https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/economic-uncertainty-restric...
  - eigenvalue 6y ago
    How would you even know that? Most of the value in terms of pesos would be from a small number of wealthy people who have a very strong interest in secrecy, and are likely using VPNs and other means to shield their activities. My guess is that, for wealthy people who are somewhat tech savvy or know someone who is who they can trust, it's a very good option. Certainly better than sending relatives on a plane with $9k in USD cash to get it to a relative abroad for safe keeping.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      Depends if we measure use by number of people moving, amount of currency moved, or something else.
tomfern 6y ago
Yes, what you call hypothetical situation is my daily life. The country where I live, Argentina, frequently imposes heavy restrictions on buying and selling foreign currencies. There is a hard monthly limit of $200 per person per month and there are talks of reducing the limit even further. Sometimes crypto is the only way of sending/receiving money from other countries reliably and cheaply. Other countries are much worse, Venezuela for instance has destroyed the value of their money, so bad that people use it wallpaper.
AdrianB1 6y ago
A few years ago my company had to get US dollars out of Nigeria from the sale of the products we manufactured to pay the suppliers we have in other countries. Perfectly legitimate reason, but due to currency restrictions in Nigeria the finance guys had to use a scheme using a mix of crypto currencies (mostly bitcoin, I think, but not only). I don't know the cost of the transaction, but we barely covered it from the sales. I heard there was a similar problem in Egypt, no idea if and how it was solved.

wheels 6y ago

I, for example, have friends that use Bitcoin to move money in and out of Zimbabwe.

fit2rule 6y ago

Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, Kosovo, Venezuela, El Salvador: these are all places where war and strife and economic turmoil and the Wests' sanctions have led a significant number of their citizens to use Bitcoin - and other cryptocurrencies - to manage their lives and feed themselves, and their families. It beggars belief that someone would so callously call the situation in these countries 'hypothetical'. Please, inform yourself about the war and strife that is occurring outside your own bubble. Its very important that we in the West stop ignoring the plight of the people our military industrial complex is targeting with their weapons. Bitcoin has held things together in many such places. Also: Russia.

adwn 6y ago
> Please, inform yourself about the war and strife that is occurring outside your own bubble. User adamsea is informing himself, that's why he's asking a question here.
- IcePic 6y ago
  Yeah, I didn't see the questioning as "is there really war someplace right now?" but rather "is there really a place where you (or your grandparents) can get bread and milk for bitcoins when normal money collapsed?"
  - int_19h 6y ago
    We were specifically talking about BTC as a way to transfer money, as opposed to being used as money itself. I can't think of any place where you'd buy bread with BTC, but there are a few where you might be receiving BTC transfers, cashing them out locally, and using that money. A hawala based on blockchain rather than pure trust, so to speak.
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Just because people are starving behind economic blockades and sanctions and mafia hell, doesn't mean they don't RTFM. (Oh, and you can use BTC on the street, all over the world.)
      - adamsea 6y ago
        > You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Shouldn't we amend that statement to be "You can use bitcoin to buy anything which is being sold by some other bitcoin user?" ;) Which sure, is potentially anything/anyone, but will obviously vary on circumstances.
      - int_19h 6y ago
        > You can buy anything, from anyone, with bitcoin. All it takes is two bitcoin users. Bitcoin users are a tiny, tiny percentage of "anyone".

viralpoetry 6y ago

Fearing return to drachma, some Greeks use bitcoin to dodge capital controls https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-greece-bitcoin/fearing-return-to-drachma-some-greeks-use-bitcoin-to-dodge-capital-controls-idUKKCN0PD19S20150703 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-greece-bitcoin/f... WikiLeaks may have amassed more than $46 million in Bitcoin based on the number of coins held by its known wallet address. https://bitcoinist.com/wikileaks-has-received-more-than-46-million-in-bitcoin/ https://bitcoinist.com/wikileaks-has-received-more-than-46-m...

Muromec 6y ago

> Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel? That indeed is a bunch of real situations that have happened to me in 2014-2015 and some of that is still a thing. Check your privileges, sweet summer child. Like seriously — for the first 30 years of my life it was outright illegal to have a bank account in a foreign country in my name. Not enforceable in practice, except I can’t make wires between two. So 2014, fucking Russia is being Russia again, USD wired from foreign clients goes in... and is sold for UAH at government mandated rate. I sit in a third country, withdraw it through ATM. Guess what? It is converted back to USD at a market rate. Of course you can still bring cash or btc in and sell it at market rate plus some margin, but not 30 damn percent. Sometimes it’s less dramatic and web interface of your bank doesn’t have regexp for IBAN format of destination country. Ridiculous but have happened as well, so I have proxied IBAN that starts with GB instead of UA and that always works.

adwn 6y ago
> Check your privileges, sweet summer child. Please don't do this here. It is needlessly condescending and insulting.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  Some people feel insulted when someone thinks that their real problems are imaginary, so a hostile reaction is understandable, I guess.
- Muromec 6y ago
  My bad. The comment I replied to was so tone-deaf, that I mistaken myself being on reddit.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  It is, but maybe start telling op? "Does this hypothetical situation you describe exist anywhere outside of the hypothetical situation posited by a character in a Neal Stephenson novel"

Izikiel43 6y ago

Argentina is literally in that situation now. The government charges a surplus 30% tax on any foreign currency purchase (cash, Netflix, anything outside the country), and only allows you to buy 200 usd a month legally. The inflation rate is over 50% there, Bitcoin is more stable than the Argentinian peso. Basically, the government has made it illegal for you to legally save money on a different currency than the Argentinian peso.

davidgerard 6y ago
and yet, bitcoin use is still negligible.
- Izikiel43 6y ago
  Never said it wasn’t, o just mentioned a case where it’s useful.
- centimeter 6y ago
  Sounds like it's actually quite popular there now https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/economic-uncertainty-restrictions-in-argentina-show-power-of-bitcoin-2019-12-11 https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/economic-uncertainty-restric...
- eigenvalue 6y ago
  How would you even know that? Most of the value in terms of pesos would be from a small number of wealthy people who have a very strong interest in secrecy, and are likely using VPNs and other means to shield their activities. My guess is that, for wealthy people who are somewhat tech savvy or know someone who is who they can trust, it's a very good option. Certainly better than sending relatives on a plane with $9k in USD cash to get it to a relative abroad for safe keeping.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Depends if we measure use by number of people moving, amount of currency moved, or something else.

tomfern 6y ago

Yes, what you call hypothetical situation is my daily life. The country where I live, Argentina, frequently imposes heavy restrictions on buying and selling foreign currencies. There is a hard monthly limit of $200 per person per month and there are talks of reducing the limit even further. Sometimes crypto is the only way of sending/receiving money from other countries reliably and cheaply. Other countries are much worse, Venezuela for instance has destroyed the value of their money, so bad that people use it wallpaper.

AdrianB1 6y ago

A few years ago my company had to get US dollars out of Nigeria from the sale of the products we manufactured to pay the suppliers we have in other countries. Perfectly legitimate reason, but due to currency restrictions in Nigeria the finance guys had to use a scheme using a mix of crypto currencies (mostly bitcoin, I think, but not only). I don't know the cost of the transaction, but we barely covered it from the sales. I heard there was a similar problem in Egypt, no idea if and how it was solved.