18 ms·

Good point. Interestingly, Black students in the United States are subject to disciplinary action at rates much higher than their white counterparts. These dis

Good point. Interestingly, Black students in the United States are subject to disciplinary action at rates much higher than their white counterparts. These disciplinary actions put students at higher risk for negative life outcomes, including involvement in the criminal justice system. QUOTE: "Black children do not misbehave more than their White peers, rather they are punished more. In fact, Black students are more likely than their White peers to receive a disciplinary action for a discretionary offense like talking back, violating a dress code, or being defiant. Black children are also more likely to be suspended out of school for their first offense." SOURCES: - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678799/ - https://www.pnas.org/content/116/17/8255 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/17/8255 - https://www.marshall.usc.edu/sites/default/files/slittle/intellcont/Little%20The%20Problem%20With%20Black%20Boys%20CEJ%202018-1.pdf https://www.marshall.usc.edu/sites/default/files/slittle/int... - https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-attending-school-is-an-act-of-racial-justice/ https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-atten... - http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/racial-disproportionality-in-school-discipline-implicit-bias-is-heavily-implicated/ http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/racial-disproportionality-in-... - https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-report/ https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-re... - https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-attending-school-is-an-act-of-racial-justice/ https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-atten...

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Would it even be acceptable to publish a study that says otherwise? Could even a contrary theory be presented in polite society?
- peterpeppers 6y ago
  This is going to seem rude but try reading more. The Hoover Institution at Stanford has long supported the data-backed studies of conservative economists on disparities in schooling from Thomas Sowell, Mike Petrelli, Walter White and Chester E. Finn Jr among others. The general conservative reaction to the mountain of data is that the studies are correct. The concern is in "what to do next?" or "Yes, the data is bad but it doesn't mean that racism lurks behind every tree." A change in policy may result in even worse outcomes. STUDIES & OPINION: - https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-think-about-discipline-disparities https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-think-a... - https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-fit-school-discipline/ https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-fi... - https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities-disparate-impact#body https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities...
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    To be fair, the fact that something happens to be true (which, I feel the need to point out, no one here is actually disputing in this case) doesn't have any direct bearing on the question of whether polite society, in the counterfactual case that it were not true, would allow studies to conclude accordingly.
    - peterpeppers 6y ago
      Not understanding the point, unless your aim is to be conspiratorial in nature. The Stanford/Hoover Institute studies are obviously the contrarian view so yes "society" allows an opposing viewpoint...backed by data. Last I checked, you're free to conclude whatever you wish even when lacking verifiable data unless your actual goal is to be liked by some particular segment of "society."
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mcphage 6y ago
  Yes, if it were true.
- abiogenesis 6y ago
  Your argument is irrelevant. It does not invalidate the research linked above in either case.
  - tasuki 6y ago
    Which argument? All I see is ed25519FUUU asking two questions.
    - abiogenesis 6y ago
      Did you know that what you (and ed25519FUUU) does has a name? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
      - tasuki 6y ago
        I believe you're acting in good faith, and am a little sad you think I'm acting in bad faith. Can't speak for ed25519FUUU, but I certainly do not have anything against the above linked research. I think ed25519FUUU's point was that doing honest research has become tricky: if a researcher were to get a factually correct but politically incorrect result, could the researcher publish it without facing negative consequences? It was not an argument against the linked research, it was just a tangential hypothetical.
apostacy 6y ago
> Interestingly, Black students in the United States are subject to disciplinary action at rates much higher than their white counterparts. These disciplinary actions put students at higher risk for negative life outcomes, including involvement in the criminal justice system. This is NOT true. This kind of misinformation is especially harmful to black kids in particular when you erase any real issues that they might be suffering from, and externalize it all as racism. The fact that black kids are simply less likely to have parents that have free time to spend with them, and are less likely to have a nutritious breakfasts can go a long way to explaining their disciplinary and performance problems. Other factors are that parents are less trusting of social workers, and so learning problems go untreated longer. Black kids are less likely to get glasses, and less likely to get treated for things like dyslexia. These are IMPORTANT issues, and by blaming any disparate outcomes on racism, you are completely erasing these very real problems that can be addressed, and getting in the way of actually helping. It is egregious that when there are kids who have very visible health problems from malnutrition, there are these consultants who are blaming everything on their teachers "unconscious racism", and wanting to put their teachers through these laughable unconscious bias apparatuses. > QUOTE: "Black children do not misbehave more than their White peers, rather they are punished more. In fact, Black students are more likely than their White peers to receive a disciplinary action for a discretionary offense like talking back, violating a dress code, or being defiant. Black children are also more likely to be suspended out of school for their first offense." I don't think your sources are very relevant. your csgjusticecenter.org link is 404. The very fact that black kids tend to come from a different socioeconomic background means that they will not have exactly the same needs and behaviors as other kids, so it is unreasonable to assume that they will be disciplined exactly the same.
- cosmiccatnap 6y ago
  For all your diatribe you didn't include one source to back up your claim... All you have are assumptions that don't really check out. The fact of the matter is that there IS systemic racism at every level of our society including this one and plenty of black students face it regardless of social background, income, and the availability of both parental figures. I think you are using outlines to justify your claim at best and simply side stepping the truth to help yourself sleep at worst.
rbecker 6y ago
Could you explain how that quote was arrived at, specifically the "do not misbehave more than their White peers" part? The article attributes it to https://web.archive.org/web/20200202151016/https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-report/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200202151016/https://csgjustic..., but the closest I was able to find in that report was: To address any suggestions that children of color in Texas simply are more likely to break school rules than their white counterparts, researchers included in their analyses a comparison between profiles for students whose behavior prompted a discretionary action and students who received a mandatory removal from school. The "comparison between profiles" part is rather vague, so I can't figure out what exactly it is they did. As for the results of that comparison, I could only find the following: While refuting some potential explanations why African-American students were particularly likely to be disciplined for lower-level violations of a school code of conduct, this analysis does not pinpoint the reasons for it. And it might be more apt to compare vs. Hispanic students, since they are the largest demographic in Texas, as the report notes: the student population, which is 49 percent Hispanic, 33 percent white, and 14 percent African American, reflects a diversity that increasingly typifies many school systems in the United States.
noxer 6y ago
Victim mentality is not helpful for anyone. Especially not if you train young people to assume they are a victim whenever something isn't good for them.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  It's a damn sight better than teaching them to ignore what right in front of their noses. Or doing that yourself.
  - noxer 6y ago
    Victim mentality leads to the ignore mentality. If a kid learns that there are different rules for different groups of people and that the only reason it is in the victim group is something they can not change (wealth, race, gender etc.) then you end up with ignorance. Eventually everything is rigged against them and the only way to fight the unfair rules is to not playing by the rules anymore. That's how you end up with people stealing from "the rich" but they feel like Robin Hood. Like they actually think it is right thing to do. While in reality they should not accept being in the victim group, they should learn that they can achieve the same as everyone else and if someone tries to stop them they should not accept that.
peterpeppers 6y ago
https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Breaking_Schools_Rules_Report_Final.pdf https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Brea...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lumberingjack 6y ago
You should go back to Reddit where they spread tons of misinformation and lies you'll fit in great they're also racist and don't even know it.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

Would it even be acceptable to publish a study that says otherwise? Could even a contrary theory be presented in polite society?

peterpeppers 6y ago
This is going to seem rude but try reading more. The Hoover Institution at Stanford has long supported the data-backed studies of conservative economists on disparities in schooling from Thomas Sowell, Mike Petrelli, Walter White and Chester E. Finn Jr among others. The general conservative reaction to the mountain of data is that the studies are correct. The concern is in "what to do next?" or "Yes, the data is bad but it doesn't mean that racism lurks behind every tree." A change in policy may result in even worse outcomes. STUDIES & OPINION: - https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-think-about-discipline-disparities https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-think-a... - https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-fit-school-discipline/ https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-fi... - https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities-disparate-impact#body https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities...
- a1369209993 6y ago
  To be fair, the fact that something happens to be true (which, I feel the need to point out, no one here is actually disputing in this case) doesn't have any direct bearing on the question of whether polite society, in the counterfactual case that it were not true, would allow studies to conclude accordingly.
  - peterpeppers 6y ago
    Not understanding the point, unless your aim is to be conspiratorial in nature. The Stanford/Hoover Institute studies are obviously the contrarian view so yes "society" allows an opposing viewpoint...backed by data. Last I checked, you're free to conclude whatever you wish even when lacking verifiable data unless your actual goal is to be liked by some particular segment of "society."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mcphage 6y ago
Yes, if it were true.
abiogenesis 6y ago
Your argument is irrelevant. It does not invalidate the research linked above in either case.
- tasuki 6y ago
  Which argument? All I see is ed25519FUUU asking two questions.
  - abiogenesis 6y ago
    Did you know that what you (and ed25519FUUU) does has a name? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
    - tasuki 6y ago
      I believe you're acting in good faith, and am a little sad you think I'm acting in bad faith. Can't speak for ed25519FUUU, but I certainly do not have anything against the above linked research. I think ed25519FUUU's point was that doing honest research has become tricky: if a researcher were to get a factually correct but politically incorrect result, could the researcher publish it without facing negative consequences? It was not an argument against the linked research, it was just a tangential hypothetical.

apostacy 6y ago

> Interestingly, Black students in the United States are subject to disciplinary action at rates much higher than their white counterparts. These disciplinary actions put students at higher risk for negative life outcomes, including involvement in the criminal justice system. This is NOT true. This kind of misinformation is especially harmful to black kids in particular when you erase any real issues that they might be suffering from, and externalize it all as racism. The fact that black kids are simply less likely to have parents that have free time to spend with them, and are less likely to have a nutritious breakfasts can go a long way to explaining their disciplinary and performance problems. Other factors are that parents are less trusting of social workers, and so learning problems go untreated longer. Black kids are less likely to get glasses, and less likely to get treated for things like dyslexia. These are IMPORTANT issues, and by blaming any disparate outcomes on racism, you are completely erasing these very real problems that can be addressed, and getting in the way of actually helping. It is egregious that when there are kids who have very visible health problems from malnutrition, there are these consultants who are blaming everything on their teachers "unconscious racism", and wanting to put their teachers through these laughable unconscious bias apparatuses. > QUOTE: "Black children do not misbehave more than their White peers, rather they are punished more. In fact, Black students are more likely than their White peers to receive a disciplinary action for a discretionary offense like talking back, violating a dress code, or being defiant. Black children are also more likely to be suspended out of school for their first offense." I don't think your sources are very relevant. your csgjusticecenter.org link is 404. The very fact that black kids tend to come from a different socioeconomic background means that they will not have exactly the same needs and behaviors as other kids, so it is unreasonable to assume that they will be disciplined exactly the same.

cosmiccatnap 6y ago
For all your diatribe you didn't include one source to back up your claim... All you have are assumptions that don't really check out. The fact of the matter is that there IS systemic racism at every level of our society including this one and plenty of black students face it regardless of social background, income, and the availability of both parental figures. I think you are using outlines to justify your claim at best and simply side stepping the truth to help yourself sleep at worst.

rbecker 6y ago

Could you explain how that quote was arrived at, specifically the "do not misbehave more than their White peers" part? The article attributes it to https://web.archive.org/web/20200202151016/https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-report/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200202151016/https://csgjustic..., but the closest I was able to find in that report was: To address any suggestions that children of color in Texas simply are more likely to break school rules than their white counterparts, researchers included in their analyses a comparison between profiles for students whose behavior prompted a discretionary action and students who received a mandatory removal from school. The "comparison between profiles" part is rather vague, so I can't figure out what exactly it is they did. As for the results of that comparison, I could only find the following: While refuting some potential explanations why African-American students were particularly likely to be disciplined for lower-level violations of a school code of conduct, this analysis does not pinpoint the reasons for it. And it might be more apt to compare vs. Hispanic students, since they are the largest demographic in Texas, as the report notes: the student population, which is 49 percent Hispanic, 33 percent white, and 14 percent African American, reflects a diversity that increasingly typifies many school systems in the United States.

noxer 6y ago

Victim mentality is not helpful for anyone. Especially not if you train young people to assume they are a victim whenever something isn't good for them.

WalterSear 6y ago
It's a damn sight better than teaching them to ignore what right in front of their noses. Or doing that yourself.
- noxer 6y ago
  Victim mentality leads to the ignore mentality. If a kid learns that there are different rules for different groups of people and that the only reason it is in the victim group is something they can not change (wealth, race, gender etc.) then you end up with ignorance. Eventually everything is rigged against them and the only way to fight the unfair rules is to not playing by the rules anymore. That's how you end up with people stealing from "the rich" but they feel like Robin Hood. Like they actually think it is right thing to do. While in reality they should not accept being in the victim group, they should learn that they can achieve the same as everyone else and if someone tries to stop them they should not accept that.

peterpeppers 6y ago

https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Breaking_Schools_Rules_Report_Final.pdf https://csgjusticecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Brea...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

lumberingjack 6y ago

You should go back to Reddit where they spread tons of misinformation and lies you'll fit in great they're also racist and don't even know it.